how low is too low?

[haycait911]

thanks everyone for the input! I'll happily bow to the consensus and keep it at this height, except for lowering the front a tad more. I'll post a couple of pics on this thread when I get it all assembled and looking pretty. Don.

[Danny_Ocean]

Too low:



I had to raise the front about 1/2"...

[fly4val]

Danny!!!

Absolutely WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stole my heart...thanks for sharing!!!

[Darryl I]

[fly4val]

Very sweet Darryl, nice stance!

[haycait911]

I like that Darryl, that's gotta be about where I am now. why do we measure ride height from the ground to the wheel opening lip? it seems to make more sense to measure the distance between the upper edge of the wheel and the wheel opening lip. that way tire size variables would be eliminated. and that distance is what you tend to see when you look at the stance of a car. just my canadian $.02 ( about $.018 american). Don.

[Darryl I]

haycait911,
Thanks, only rubs when i hit the "big unexpected pot hole" or a tight 90 degree turn at high speeds. I was thinking of rolling the fenders?

PS; i'm from Montreal living in Vegas, go figure!

[haycait911]

Darryl, I rolled my lips in/upward to clear the tires but didn't put any kind of flare on them. I like the 'narrow' body look with big meats underneath the back. I bet it's a little warmer where you are now 'EH. take off hoser. Don. ( I hope you're not too young to recognize that)

[Andrew Brunson]

What brand of tires are you running, tread style looks good. Your silver makes me drool. Buying used limits your choices and mines red, just not my favorite color on a 911. I'm just old and old school is silver on a 911.

[Gunter]

Don: Nice car.
Too many people sacrifice handling/performance for looks.
2.5 deg negative in the rear makes no sense. If you need to go to that extreme to fit 8's, it's not worth it.
Do you have the bump-steer kit installed?
You'll be surprised how well a 911 handles when alignment and corner balance are done for performance, not looks.
1 deg negative in the front, 1.5 in the rear is plenty.
Toe-in front 1/16", Neutral toe rear.
Keep the front lip 1/2" higher than the rear to get that 1 deg nose-down attitude.
If you go too low, the shocks/struts will bottom out if the snubbers aren't reduced/removed.

[ckissick]

Originally posted by Gunter
Don: Nice car.
Too many people sacrifice handling/performance for looks.
2.5 deg negative in the rear makes no sense. If you need to go to that extreme to fit 8's, it's not worth it.
Do you have the bump-steer kit installed?
You'll be surprised how well a 911 handles when alignment and corner balance are done for performance, not looks.
1 deg negative in the front, 1.5 in the rear is plenty.
Toe-in front 1/16", Neutral toe rear.
Keep the front lip 1/2" higher than the rear to get that 1 deg nose-down attitude.
If you go too low, the shocks/struts will bottom out if the snubbers aren't reduced/removed.

Gunter makes some good points here. My next project is to raise my car. It's about as low as the subject of this thread, and the shocks bottom out, the cars jumps around bumpy corners, and the exhaust hits the asphalt too much. Some local wrenches tell me it will corner better if its a little higher.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Some observations,.......

Over the years, I've seen a lot of cars that were excessively lowered by either their owners or shops that should have known better. Without question, they certainly looked cool but really didn't handle nor ride very well.

When a 911 is lowered a little too much, you run into problems with insufficient suspension travel, roll centers that are too low (or too far apart), and bump steer issues. Further, the camber curves can be FAR from optimal.
Suspension travel on these cars is determined by the shocks: if they even momentarily bottom out, your spring rates leap to infinity and suddenly, you are driving a park bench. When this occurs in a corner, the chances of that tire losing its grip really goes up. One counters this problem by using raised spindle struts and shorter rear shocks.

Roll center locations are affected by ride height and when the front end is too low, the roll center is positioned below ground and that increases front lateral weight transfer. This increases the propensity to pick up the inside front tire in a corner. Cars with 4 tires on the ground can corner faster than ones with 3 tires making contact,....

Bump steer rears its ugly head when the car is too low, but this can usually be corrected with a proper bump steer kit such as the Elephant Racing ones. Rack spacers are very limited in what they can do.

Finally, suspension geometry range is affected by ride height and its easily to lower these cars to the point where camber gains are excessive and the tires are not flat on the ground for maximum grip. This one is expensive to deal with.

I've just touched on these issues and this is a simplification of everything that occurs with these cars but I hope this helps people understand a few of the things that really affect how these cars work so that the handling is not compromised for appearance.

[DARISC]

Just a leeetle lower than Euro height...

[SP2]

Steve, do you have to realign the front end if you install a bump steer kit?

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally posted by SP2
Steve, do you have to realign the front end if you install a bump steer kit?

Yessir, you do.

[Danny_Ocean]

Originally posted by Steve@Rennsport
Some observations,.......

Over the years, I've seen a lot of cars that were excessively lowered by either their owners or shops that should have known better. Without question, they certainly looked cool but really didn't handle nor ride very well.

I've just touched on these issues and this is a simplification of everything that occurs with these cars but I hope this helps people understand a few of the things that really affect how these cars work so that the handling is not compromised for appearance.

You assume we're all racers or "spirited drivers". My car goes from the garage, to the beach, to bar/restaurant, and back home. Not a lot of twisties here in FLA.

[JV911SYDNEY]

looks great as it is. if anything the front could be a tad lower.

just had my suspension refreshed and lowered. its actually less bumpy on rough surfaces now. just have to be mindful of speed-bumps and driveways...havent hit anything yet

here are some crappy phone pics:

[Gunter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JV911SYDNEY
[B]looks great as it is. if anything the front could be a tad lower.

It is obvious that the camp is divided between looks vs. performance. What is laughable though is when "Look-Advocates" are pretending that excessive lowering of stock suspensions is just fine; handles great!........please!

Just whacking it down to impress whom?

Anyone who is familiar with 911-suspensions will know that proper lowering requires some additional expensive work and components.
If you just go for looks, at least recognize that there are risk factors involved in whacking it down and that it will not improve performance.

Steve gives you an excellent overview of suspension issues.

Your choice.

[haycait911]

OK guys, time to put this one to bed. thanks to everyone for the input and technical advice/knowledge. I've raised the rear a bit, front lip now 1/2 " higher than rear. I should be able to get rear camber down to 2 degrees if not a little less. installed bump steer kit. I'll try it like this and raise if need be once I get a feeling for ride/handling. many thanks to everyone again, I don't know where I'd be without you guys. probably have a hole in my head from scratching it all the time. ( get it? head scratching). Gunter, if you're ever heading over to the okanagan drop me a line, I'd like to meet you. Don.