Whats the final word on 3.0 to 3.2 P/C's

Ok, I know I have read and or heard of people talking about upgrading a 3.0L engine out of an SC to a 3.2L with a set of pistons and cylinders.
I got off of the phone with the people at Vertex and they told me that such a conversion wasn't possible because of the different size of the case openings or something.
Is this true? Can someone please put this pipe dream to rest for me!


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Leland Pate

___79 SC Targa

Well, anything is possible in the HotRod world, all it takes is expenditure of CUBIC $$$! The crankcase halves can be bored for larger cylinder spigot diameter by a place such as Competition Engineering ... that is, after all, what the factory does! And, there is no difference, or not much, between the cost of the cylinders and pistons!

Have you done the cylinder ovality measurements, yet, and what are they? Have you considered going to JE 9.5:1 pistons in your 'honed' cylinders? $600 is a LOT less than $2K!!!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

I believe Bruce Anderson's "Handbook" states the 3.2 pistons and cylinders on a 3.0 are one of the most effect upgrades that can be made to motor. People were picking up their new 3.0 P-cars and driving to Werks to have the conversion performed. And this was on a brand new 3.0. Bruce states, and I believe, this is not done too often because the 3.0 is just too reliable. If I was in your position, I would make the switch.
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Paul
78SC Targa

Leland,

The dream can happen, if you don't mind sending the crankcase off, but you will need to remove all of the head studs beforehand, or they will charge you more! I think $180-$200 is the 'going' rate for boring the case for larger cylinders, and yes, it is a very cost effective way to get more cc's and hp, assuming you do HAVE to buy new cylinders and pistons, but I'm not convinced you have to, yet!

And don't forget, to remove the studs you have to heat the crankcase to 375 degrees F in order to 'melt' the stud locking compound (LokTite orange, the stubborn kind) and release, so removal is reasonably easy!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Leland,

We've been eagerly awaiting word, so thanks for the update. Like Warren, I question whether you need new cylinders. Risking plagiarism, I will suggest that the hone marks in your used cylinders cannot be nearly as deep as the super-hard lining in your stock cylinders, so we suspect they are well within spec. I have the spec book sitting here next to me and would be happy to provide those pages. If I had your fax number I'd have probably sent it already. Ther are specs for cylinder ovalty (ovality?) and for piston skirt wear (don't get excited boys). This could save you thousands.

If I HAD to change cylinders, I'd definitely go with the 3.2 set, for the reasons stated above.

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'83 SC

Forgive me for interjecting, but I believe there is no modification required on a 3.0L crankcase to use the Max Moritz 3.2L P/C upgrade. This is why people could have this mod done so easily. The 98mm bore cylinders will fit into the unmodified case. Only if one upsizes to a 100mm bore do you need to bore out the cylinder spigots. I believe this info is clearly stated in BA's book. You may need to champfer the heads for the larger pistons but at least you don't have to split the case.

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Eric Purdy - 1980
911SC

I drove a Jerry Woods built 3.2 using the Max Moritz P/C's (the bad guy's red 911 in the movie "Overdrive"). It's a nice mod but I was under the impression that the parts may be hard to find.

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Carlo
http://bigblue111c.tripod.com/dec2000/

Hi Leland, How are you going to build this motor, Cams? Carbs? SSI's? What are you doing to it?

Randy Jones
1971 911

P.S. The spigots on an SC case will work with 98mm cylinders.

From what I have heard, the ports in 78 and 79 are larger than in the later SCs, making it the ideal engine to convert to 3.2. This is a relatively straightforward conversion - Ruf in Germany did hundereds of these 3.0 to 3.2 upgrades in the eighties. Also you will end up with a "short stroke" 3.2. This change will give you a much more powerful engine than a stock 3.2 - probably not legal if you decide to compete later. Otherwise this is a great conversion, especially with carbs, crankfire and SSIs.

Randy

You can install a direct bolt in 3.2 "big bore kit" into your stock "short stroke" 3.0. This will give you more power and with it being a short stroke 3.2 will have a lot more bottom end compared to a 3.2 "long stroke". Price on big bore kit $2295-$2495 depending where you purchase it.

Now for around $2500, there are things you can do to get more power over all at a cheaper price. Kind of like what Warren brought up of just replacing your pistons and keeping it a 3.0. I know, I know BIGGER always sounds better for "bragging right" but Bigger is not always better, it sure doesn't hurt, but it all comes down to your budget.

Now, if you wanted to add performance and not spend $2500 on a big bore kit you could?

Go with Racing Hi-Compression forged pistons $899.00 a set (they come any compression and already valve clearance.
Port and polish the heads and manifolds of the 3.0 $400.00
964 Camshaft profile $350.00 a pair
Headers (no heat) and Stainless Steel Performance muffler $799.00 complete
This all adds up to $2450.00 (depending where you purchase it from.

Now which way will give you more power over all???

Now if your budget is more then some, then heck, buy it all .

I bring this up, because EVERYONE always wants BIGGER BIGGER, but sometimes you can go another route?

Is this motor going to be carb? or CIS? and what are you going to use the Porsche for? Play or Race?

Also is your cylinders Alu? or Nik? Because if not Nik, then sorry you can not go with Forged Pistons

Good luck,

Roy at http://www.motormeister.com

How does one tell what your cylinders are made of? Were all the 3.0L SC motors the same?

How does one tell what your cylinders are made of? Were all the 3.0L SC motors the same?

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Eric Purdy - 1980
911SC

Just curious, but does anyone have the horsepower/torque numbers for this conversion?

Roy, I'm rebuilding the motor in my SC because of a snapped head stud. The car is just a daily driver and I just want her to run reliably and smooth.
This question of different Pistons and cylinders came about because of the fact that my mechanic is "strongly" urging me to not reuse my existing Clyinders. They are Nikasils and they look to be in fine shape for their age. My mechanis swears that there is no way a set of cylinders can have 220,000 miles on them and not be worn out of spec. and therefore cannot be reused.
Because of this I am trying to explore my options.
I can hardly stand the thought of having to buy a new set of Pistons and cylinders. I have seen in Excelence where a firm called Engine Builders supply sells what they call Reconditioned Cylinders for a 3.0L.
Has anyone ever heard of this? My mechanic seemed pretty sceptical about reconditioning cylinders... something about not really being possible in Nikasil impregnated barrels.
I dunno, but if I have to buy a new set of P/C's then I'm facing the prospect of not having my baby put back together for a very long time.

Any advice would be most appreciated.

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Leland Pate

___79 SC Targa

Oh and I should also mention that he (my mechanic) didn't really even want to see my old cylinders and when he did he just looked 'em over a bit and said: well there's no way that these aren't worn too much to be reused with that kind of mileage." After I prodded a bit more he took a ring off of one of my pistons and pushed it in the bore using the skirt on the piston and held it up to the light to see if he could see any light coming through. I sure didn't and I'm half his age.
My point is, I know he is just fanatical about doing the job right and thats all fine and dandy unless you just can't afford to replace "Everydarnthing" in the engine.
He didn't even actually take any measurements which is what I really wanted.
What should I do?


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Leland Pate

___79 SC Targa

Leland, I recall you stating that you did not have much history on the car; so 220K on that engine is just an assumption and to be swayed by this mechanic to believe the cylinders are bad because of what a little mechanical device prone to breaking and fraud does not make sense! Suppose the car was bought 20 years ago for a rich kid, abused - repaired -abused - repaired -sold-used-sold etc... after 20 years who's to say the cylinders are original and bad because the car is old. Your mechanic is being narrow minded; you need to measure them or have them measured, any good machine shop(if there are any left that haven't been put out of business by cheaper machining in China) can do it if provided with the specs you are looking for!

Good luck

Nah, I have every record on the car dating back to 1981. I'm the second owner of the car and the first owner is a 65 yr old female foot surgeon.
I do agree with you about my mechanic being narrow minded. I know he isn't trying to rip me off because I never buy parts from him and he knows that. I can get stuff cheaper from Pelican, Vertex, and Zims. So, I know I need to get these suckers measured, the only question is "where".
I can call German Precision and see if that is something they can do at the same time they are working on my heads.


[This message has been edited by Leland Pate (edited 01-10-2001).]

Hi Leland. If you can, ask some of your Air Force plane mechanics where they have stuff checked. Any aerospace machine/maint shop should have a CMM (coordinate measuring machine). They could quickly do a point cloud and and give you a accurate picture of the shape of a cylinder. Hope you get your baby back soon.
david 89 turbo cab

Leland,

I am not unlike your mechanic in wanting to use high quality components, but I also appreciate the need to be reasonably economical for rebuilding on a budget ... that is why I suggested only replacing the bottom row of studs, and to use the OEM factory steel studs that came on your top row of studs! But, I didn't just pull that idea out of 'thin' air ... Bruce Anderson said that very same thing in response to someone in exactly your situation in the April 2000 issue of Excellence!

Nikasil cylinders can be replated with the Nickel-Silicon Carbide, but I don't know if that is what EBS means by 'reconditioning' or not. My suggestion is to email them and ask, they might take your cylinders in trade ... you won't find out unless you ask!

But, I still think you need to measure you cylinders and pistons before you decide what to do. Your mechanic seems quite stubborn, so you will have to find the proper measurement tools (on base, PMEL - maybe?) or some other engine shop to do the measurements, even if you have to pay them, it would be worth the trouble! You really have to have the measurements on every piston and cylinder to make the decision! Guessing or assuming is a mistake!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

The folowing site quotes for original manufacturer (mahle) 3.2 p + c conversions for the sc, try www.fvd.de not cheap but the right quality

Bruce 83 sc