Trying to learn heel-toe

I've been trying to learn heel-toe downshifting but am having difficulty blipping the gas pedal. I understand that you press the brake pedal with the ball of the right foot, but what part of the foot do you use for the gas? I've tried using my heel, but since the pedals come up from the floor it's very difficult to press hard enough to blip the gas, let alone give the right amount of gas to match rpm's.

Should I be using the outside of the right foot closer to the toe to blip the gas?

Thanks for any tips.

Drew
92 C2

Try bending your ankle, when you're hard on the brake pedal, it shouldn't be too far off the gas.

On a lot of cars, you can use the left side of your right foot for the brake, and the right side of it for the throttle. That's what Bondurant does

You'll soon get the hang of it, I remember when I first tried this, now it's second nature, for just about every downsift.
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

nothing like nailing a good h-t downshift.

with these bottom hinged pedals, you will have to turn your foot completely PARELLEL (haha sorry guys...staring at the forum too long) to the ground, use your right ball of foot to brake, and the heel of the foot to blip the throttle.

At first it is uncomfortable and feels unnatural, but then you get used to it...

Also it is better then the side of the foot braking and other side of the foot blipping, because the ball and heel method allows more sensitivity and control for both braking and blipping.

good luck...my next challenge is the clutchless shifting...I actually do not "believe" it is possible...I occasionally crunch while clutching...I can't imagine throwing the 915 lever without pushing the clutch...it is a leap faith thing I guess...

[This message has been edited by 82SC (edited 01-18-2001).]

82SC-

A synchro equipped gearbox like the 915 is nearly impossible to shift (especially down shift) without at least a little tap of the clutch. In order to take advantage of clutch-less shifting and true left foot braking, you will be better off with a synchro-less "dog box". Just my $.02

-EJ

Once upon a time, I had my clutch cable snap in my old 78 SC on the Sousa bridge headed into lower Southeast D.C. in rush hour - not a place or time to be stranded in a 911. I quickly learned to use the starter to get me going in first at the stoplights and do clutchless shifts for 45 miles all the way back to my Porsche shop. It's the downshifts into second and first that really make your heart stop for a minute. Just light pressure on the stick and ease into the rpm's - when they line up it just slides in like butter. (Well, maybe not exactly like butter.)

Also - the left ball of the foot on the brake and the right ball on the gas is the way to go for me. I never could use the heel.

82sc, did you mean turn foot "parallel" to the ground? Either way it sounds as though you wear a size 6 shoe or you are a contortionist, or both.

According to Vic Elford, the term "heel/toe" dates decades back to when many cars had brake/throttle inputs configured front/back instead of side to side. Then the heel was actually used. Nowadays, the configuration is as Ahmet described. Use the large left ball of the right foot to give brake input, and feather in a throttle input by pivoting the ankle on a horizontal axis, contacting the throttle with the right side of the foot. In just about every German car I have driven, the brake pedal is only convenient to the throttle pedal when you are really into the brakes. In other words, performing "minivan stops" that begin 1/2 mile before light/corner don't work too well.

Try combining the heel/toe with double-declutch downshifting if you're not already. Makes for very (imperceptible) smooth shifts and effective decel. Also much better with 915 trans although you don't have that problem!

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Dave
1972 911T (E motor) RSR replica project
http://members.nbci.com/dtwinters/garage/

i had similar touble learnign to heel-toe then i spent $30 on a set of Sparco pedals and it got a WHOLE LOT EASIER!

pedals take about 15 minutes per pedal to install. just need a drill, a marker, and a piece of board (so you don't press the pedal to the floor while the car is off trying to drill the metal).

i am surprised that Pelican Parts does not carry them:

those are the ones i have

i also have this bit of advice on heel-toe that i wrote a while ago:

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and to practice it, try this... the downshift from 4th to 4rd, and from 3rd to 2nd, often means about an 800 rpm difference (if i remember correctly). when shifting gears try this:

go at 40mph in 4th, and then shift to 3nd gear, you will notice your car jerk and the engine will rev up to mesh the gears correctly.

now keep at 40mph in 3rd and then shift into 4th as you would normally. you will know if you are shifting correctly if your car matches the RPMs when you let the clutch out. if you clutch too long, then it will rev up when you shift, if you clutch too quick then you will grind the gears.

now this time, when going from 4th to 3rd, rev the engine by NAILING the gas pedal and then shifting when the revs fall back down. don't redline it, just nail it quickly and shift.

basically, practice heel-toe without the brake. just get used to matching the revs, but not hitting the brake yet. after a while you'll be able to:

go from 45mph to 25mph by doing this:

clutch and brake (and at same time nail the throttle)
let up clutch and you will be right at the exact revs, and your car will be going slower because the whole time you were braking.

the best thing about a good heel-toe is that the weight of the car doesn't shift as much. it is indeed smoother on the suspension, smoother on your body, and easier on the transmission.

good luck! oh, and it took me screwing up for 2 weeks before i could perfectly match the gears. i practiced on my crappy Nissan before i tried it in my Porsches. don't give up!
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obin

Took me a little while to get the heel and toe thing down, I agree with Obin, start by learning to match revs on the downshift first, then start trying to heel and toe.

I agree with 82 SC's description of technique. The bottom hinged pedals make the 911 somewhat unique, and difficult to learn initially. I need to twist my foot (size 10 1/2 EE, by the way) perpendicular to the floor(not as hard to do as it sounds) to best brake and blip the throttle at the same time.

This technique does not sync with how heel and toe was initially described to me, and does not work when I try to heel and toe in my Mazda (in fact, I am terrible at heel and toe in any car other than my 911, because it works very differently).

Keep practising, you'll work it out.

Chuck

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http://home.earthlink.net/~cgrieb/index.html

Some people actually use their heels and toes for this, but the majority of 911 drivers don't. If your pedals are adjusted correctly, heavy braking should put your brake pedal down so that it's roughly at the level of your accelerator pedal. You brake with the left side of your right foot -- it's in the normal, heel-lower-toes-higher position -- and you roll your ankle to the right a little so that the right side of your right foot can blip the accelerator. You're using the ball of your right foot for both pedals; you're just sharing the two sides of the wide part of your foot between them. A pedal extender, like the one Obin shows, can help. The thing that made the big difference on my car was a new set of pedals. The new hinge on the accelerator made it require much less effort to blip, which made a big difference in how precisely I could raise the revs.

It's awkward at first, but it does become second nature. And the sound of track-only cars suddenly makes more sense. As they come into the end of the braking zone, you'll hear the quick rev. I used to think the guys just had nervous feet.

With regard to double-clutching. I have been told (and Vic Elford's book backs this up) that there is no reason to ever double-clutch in a production Porsche. Synchromesh transmissions simply do not benefit from it. I know some people disagree with this, but I'm of the opinion that the only reason to ever double-clutch a downshift in a Porsche is because you're practicing for a car with a racing gearbox, which doesn't have synchronizing cones.

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Jack Olsen
1973 911 T (3.6) sunroof coupe
jackolsen@mediaone.net

Thanks everyone for the info. I'm going to experiment by using the right edge of my foot on the gas and then my heel to see which works better for me.

Obin, thanks for the great intermediate practice tip. It makes perfect sense to learn how to match the revs before introducing brakes into the equation. I'm going to check into the pedals also. One question though: if I decide to take the pedals off, can I restore the original look of the pedals? Also, I'm assuming that the after market pedals don't cause any problems for every day driving?

Actually, with help from some of the folks on this board, I've gotten the heel-toe thing down pretty pat. It makes going around a couple of curves I know on the highway a lot more fun.

I've tried the double-clutching thing - and I can do it on a downshift now. But I'm basically in agreement now that it's basically useless on a production Porsche with synchros. Now, if you have worn synchros - and who doesn't - it's worth a shot. I often will double-clutch down to third from fourth.

It's a useful technique. HT braking is especially cool - once you get it down you can drive smoother than ever before.

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Mark Szabo
1986 911 Targa 3.2
1987 Escort 5-speed 1.9
The Porsche Owners Gallery

In my earlier post I said perpendicular to the ground instead of parellel...sorry...

also in the book tune to win by caroll smith

I recall that he says he likes the heel toe method better then the side-side method for the reasons I stated...

anyways this technique make drving SOSOSOSOSO much more fun...good luck

Drew_K

when you put those pedals on you take off the rubber pads. i tossed mine out, but you can save yours. the aluminum pedals just increase the surface area of the pedal.

i found that i felt safer in regular traffic knowing i had a larger pedal to hit rather than aiming for a "postage stamp".

good luck! just match the revs first, worry about brakes once you can flawlessly match revs. you WILL grind the tranny a few times learning, nobody is perfect. as i indicated before, it took me 2 weeks to get it down good.

obin

Oops, I made the same mistake 82SC made, and understood his 'perpendicular' statement to mean 'parallel', so at least I got the meaning, even if it doesn't make sense.

I was skeptical of having to twist my foot, but read the description a driving instructor on Rennlist (who happened to drive a 1990 C2) had written, tried to do it his way, and it worked!

Chuck

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http://home.earthlink.net/~cgrieb/index.html

Double clutch is not useless on a synchro tranny. It's used to spin up the mass of the input shaft to the engine speed on the downshift. You have to do it to avoid upsetting the balance.

In my opinion Heel Toe is best practised with the heel and toe, with the foot sideways, not with the side of the foot but this is extrememly subjective as many do it with the side of the foot too. It takes practise but it's worth it. If you need to adjust the accelerator pedal height you can do it with a theaded rod in there if I recall.

i find one of the most useful features of matching the revs comes when you are driving on slippery roads.

i had to use engine braking 3 times today rather than stomping on the brake pedal. the great feeling is when the revs are perfectly matched. it makes you wish you had a videotape running that could show you the footwork and the tachometer .


obin