Window Install Help!

[Hawks911]

Purchased new OEM window seal from our host for our '78 911SC Targa. Got the old seal/window out very easily with only finger tip pressure from the inside (you could see light around the old seal). Got the new seal and trim installed on the window just fine.

For the last couple of days have been trying to get the new seal and window installed with no success. Had combed over all the posts here and in Wayne's 101 book on the subject for several weeks prior to attempting the install but just can't seem to make it work.





So far my wife and I have tried 9 times with the same results. We're using the rope method. Always seem to come off the tracks when we hit the corners. Starting at the bottom, going from passenger's side to driver. Get around the first, lower driver's side corner fine, up the drivers vertical side ok. At first we lost it at the driver's upper corner but over time (about the 4th attempt), we were able to get past that. Now, it seems to "pop out" when we come over to the passengers upper corner and down the passenger's vertical side. I tried a double wrap of the cord, thinking that if I got 4 straight lengths and maybe two corners, I could bring in the other corners on the second pass. For the last few attempts, we've come close, but by the time we go for the second lap, the entire window pops off the lip.

We went for 5 tries on the first day (yesterday) and kept things on a positive tone but after starting out again with high hopes tonight, it got pretty frustrating after another 4 failures in a row.

It seems like we need another pair of hands bearing down on the window, maintaining pressure toward the interior of the car. People refer to "beating" or "pounding" on the glass but I don't see how that can help. It has been our experience that the only thing that helps is to maintain pressure against the window in the actual area which you're pulling out the inner rope to seat the lip.

Help, please! Is there anything we're missing? Planning to get my brother-in-law enlisted tomorrow to help with additional perpendicular force till we've gone completely around the window with a good seal.

This is turning into a real nightmare!

The only ray of sunshine was the UPS truck pulling up yesterday as we were on our third attempt, with the garage door open, with a special delivery from Dan Petchel... our newly refurbished Targa top from New Jersey. That's a separate post.....it looks great! Haven't had a chance to get it out in the sun, as we've been fixated on the window, but it looks very nice. Dan was great to work with....a true gentleman. If only the glass/seal install was going as well.






Apreciate the help.

Mike

[Evans, Marv]

Sounds frustrating, and I wish you luck. I've put in 3 windshields and haven't had your problem. I always use two wraps of the cord and I assume you are starting with the bottom of the sindshield seal fitted on the bottom lip of the frame. Overall, it sounds like you are doing things correctly from what you describe. Another person to help apply steady, uniform pressure might help. Good luck.

[Hawks911]

Marv,

Thanks for the encouragement. Yes, we have been using two wraps, and are starting at the bottom. As you say, a third person, allowing two to evenly load the window while the third pulls the cord might help. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

If this doesn't work, my next thought is to worry about the correct fit / part number for the window. It never fit cirrectly when we bought the car last August. The window is a Safevue, AS1M34, DOT122. From the net, looks like they're out of South Africa. The glass is a bit faded arounded the edges, indicating some age. Anyone have such a part number on their '78 911SC?



Thanks.

Mike

[group911@aol.co]

Mike, can't really tell from the pics but are you installing it without the aluminum trim? It needs to be in the rubber when you install.
I usually install them by myself by getting the bottom in first then standing outside the car while pulling in the corners while pushing down really hard on the outside of the glass in the same place I am pulling the cord. After you get both bottom corners set, push down on the top thereby setting the bottlom in deeper.
Continue around the glass using the push on the outside in the same spot you are pulling from the inside. Get one corner set then go around to the other side and pull up through the next corner and then finish up across the top.

[Hawks911]

Group,

Thanks for the reply. There is actually an insert in the seal. The previous owner had replaced the aluminum trim with a plastic/rubber insert that pops into the groove of the main window seal. I installed the new oem window seal (from our host) and then pressed the old plastic trim piece into the soft rubber window seal. We then circled the lip groove twice with cord, in one direction. So that means when we go to pull the cord, applyling pressure from the outside, in the same area of the cord pull, we are going along the bottom, to the drivers lower left corner, then the drivers upper left, then across the top to the pasengers right, then bottom.

We almost had it the last try but it popped out as we were making the second pass along the bottom. My brother-in-law is going to join us the afternoon to lend a third pair of hands. I've also rigged up a set of bungy cords that I can attach to suction cups installed on the inside of the window to help with a constant inward pressure if and when we get the seal set. It's almost as if there is a natural bow to the fit that wants to pop the entire assembly off the frame while the seal is wet and slippery.

Will give it a try setting the two lower corners first rather than a clockwise loop.


My wife has been a real trooper through the whole ordeal and we're still on speaking terms even after 14 attempts!

Thanks again for the help.

Mike

[Evans, Marv]

Mike,
I would begin to suspect the fit of the windshield. You shouldn't have the trouble you are having (congrats sticking with it for this long), and it sounds like it's some kind of odd-ball brand. There are windshields you can source locally for not too much ($100 to $200). I'd start to worry about the thing popping out of there even if you get it in now. Plus, if it's foggy around the edges, it's probably pretty old. That's caused by long exposure to air. When they get old, they also tend to get brittle. Good luck.

[Hawks911]

Marv,

Thanks again for the feedback. My brother-in-law came by and the three of us gave it a go. After a couple of false results, I threw up the challenge to go no holds barred on the pressure at the outside corners as I had declared a new windshield was going to be in order if this last try didn't work. I had my wife go inside to handle the ropes and we really laid into the glass with extra emphasis on the corners.

We really thought we had it. The outside lip pulled out very nicely after we had seated the inner lip. Full coverage of all four corners!I had a pair of bungee cords attached to suction cups on the inside to help it take a seat. We let it sit in the sun for an hour, thinking it might help taking a set. At the moment of truth, went back out to see how things were going. I pulled out the plastic vents to check on the lower, inner seal lip and noticed that as we had pushed extra hard to make the upper corners seat, the lower rail had popped out. I'm taking your advice that the window is probably a bad fitting aftermarket product that should be replaced. Probably why it had light through the old seal when we bought the car.

Now the question becomes, what's the best source for a new window? Seems to be a big difference in price between the original from a dealer versus the local glass shop. Any suggestions?

Thanks.

Mike

[Evans, Marv]

I bought a new PPG windshield for about $115 (had it tinted inside with the lightest I could get for UV protection), if I remember correctly. You can have them installed at some shops for not much. Do a search and you will find a bunch of posts about that. I think you made the right decision. I'm afraid if you had gotten it to stay in, it may have popped out later on at an inopportune time. Boy, what a rush that would be!

[RoninLB]

the window is almost a pop-in install by design imo. It's meant to be kicked out if an accident necessitates.

It has to be slippery and usually heavily leaned into. The best fun is making sure it's centered.

my install is in the archives along with other successes.

worst case is call the glass shop to come down and do the install for $50.


ps: let it set up for at least 24hrs after install.

[shbop]

Try using four loops on your rope. Sitting in the car, two loops on the top and two on the bottom. About eight inches in from each end. This way you can start one side from the top and the bottom, and as you start the side, you have the ability to pull down and over, from the top loop, and over and up from the bottom. The other side of the loop lets you then start to work the rubber from both the top and bottom as you work towards the pass-side. On both the top and bottom, you will meet-up with your other two loops and have the same advantage as you set the last side. Hope this helps.

[Tim Casey]

Hopefully there is some useful information in this reply: I installed my windshield yesterday, and as a result of reading all the helpful information on this board i made sure i prepped everything accordingly. I picked up a Sekurit Saint Gobain W/S and also the factory seal as well as an aftermarket (precision) for comparison. The seals were very different. The Precision seal was much heavier and was actually too big for the glass by several inches. Also where the flap seal is located (where you insert rope) there was only one flap. The OEM seal was much more pliable, fit perfect and had two flaps on the seal where it grabs the pinch weld. Also it was coated in talcum powder. The trim went in without a hitch (except for sore thumbs). I used a small nylon rope and a tip from a tube of urethane with a hole large enough for the rope to fit thru. That makes it extremely easy to insert the rope as this allows the rope to slide in and seat. I ran two loops, with both pulls starting from the bottom center, one going right and one left where i ended. I set the glass in place and while my wife pulled the rope slowly, i followed her and with the palm of my hand pushing lightly, then slapping (open palm) as it slid in place. Its hard to see the bottom and until you hit the corners and see the seal, its a little nerve racking. Once the rope was out, using a glass cup i borrowed from a glass installer freind, i pulled the glass to center. I used a hook tool along the inside edge where the seal grabs the pinchweld, making sure it was over and looked clean. The seal fits good and looks a little bigger than my 21 year old shrunken seal. I parked it in the warm sun and a few hours later went around it again with a slap in the corners...No gaps...looks good.
Almost all the glass being made now is solar controlled. The laminate is a UV barrier as well as an acoustic sound deadener (on some vehicles.)
OEM Seal was just a few bucks more than our host, and dealer stocked it. Glass was from Auto glass installer. I called a few and learned to avoid the high volume low price shops. I found Sekurit (Factory) Glass for less than $200.00, at a company that utilizes numerous brands dependent on vehicle makes, etc.
So in the end, what made it go smooth: Help from this board, OEM Seal and Glass, and my extra set of hands from wifey....

[Hawks911]

Tim,

Appreciate your comments. The tip on using the sealant tip with a hole to help thread the rope is a good one. After over 18 tries with the aftermarket window that came with our '78 SC, my thumbs were really getting sore! The new seal from our host does seem to have the double flap and the talc in the glass groove. It is much more pliable than the one that came with the car. I really believe at this point that the window we got with the car is not the proper fit. We were using many of the pointers that you and others have mentioned on this board and while we could get two or three corners to pop-in, we couldn't connect on all four. Our last effort was close externally, but the entire lower lip popped out....the end of a frustrating two evenings and a full Saturday morning.

Pics attached indicate that we had good coverage of the corners from the external lip.

I appreciate your comments on the Sekurit windshield source. All of the other car glass is Sekurit except the windshield we've been struggling with. Come Monday, I'll start the quest of where to get one in Central Illinois.

As always, appreciate all the help from this board. It sure makes this journey easier and a lot less lonely!

Thanks again.

Mike

[Hawks911]

Threw in the towel and ordered a new replacement PPG window from local installer today. Due in this Wednesday. Hope to be enjoying the spring weather by this weekend. Sheer torture to be working on this window this weekend with the nice weather we finally had in the midwest this weekend.

Mike

[Tim Casey]

Mike,

Are you going to use the metal trim?

[Zeke]

I like the plastic trim.

Aside from Tims's info, maybe this will help:

New Improved Windshield Gasket/Seal??

[Tim Casey]

Plastic trim?? Is there actually such an item that is available?

[Zeke]

Originally posted by Tim Casey
Plastic trim?? Is there actually such an item that is available?

Seems like that's what he said:

Originally posted by Hawks911
There is actually an insert in the seal. The previous owner had replaced the aluminum trim with a plastic/rubber insert that pops into the groove of the main window seal.
Mike

[Tim Casey]

Right. I was under the impression it was being produced....

[Hawks911]

Milt,

Yes, the PO had a conventional looking seal with groove that looks just like the version I recently ordered from our host. Inside the trim/molding groove was a plastic/rubber insert with a cross section similar in shape to that of a child's old style wooden top (how's that for dating myself!). I've shot a few pics of the insert installed in the new seal, sitting on the car. Pulled out an inch of the insert to give you a better view. Apologies for all of the extra dishwashing soap in the picture, but it really builds up after 18 failed attempts!









I haven't come across anything like it here on Pelican or elsewhere on the net but it sure looks like it was made for the purpose. When I say it pops in, that's a bit of a misnomer.....it is a pretty tight fit. Not too bad on the straight sections but some of the corners were a bear! Just now getting the feeling back in my thumbs, a week and a half after first pressing the trim into the seal.

Milt, I was so happy for you (read total jealousy on the inside) when I came across your post of success taking on the same project this weekend. We had perfect weather for a road trip here in central Illinois, and I wanted so bad for this job to work and get out on the road after a long winter. I can imaging how happy you were at your success, especially on a solo install. You have my respect. I wish I had the cahones to just buy a new shield and try the install again, but for the small difference in cost, I figure I'm ahead to have them put it in at this point. They indicated they will try my new Pelican seal first and if it works with the new window, that will save $67. Here's hoping!

Take care.

Mike

[Hawks911]

Tim,

Sorry, missed your question on metal trim. I think I'll try to reuse the rubber trim replacement. Looks like it will save around $150 from what I priced in some other 911 catalogues I found. Our host doesn't have it in stock now.

Mike