My electric windows work without the key in the ignition - Page 2

rnln · 09:09 PM

Regarding the convenience relay... a while ago I found a 3 banks sockets behind my meters in the dash with only 2 relays (on the left). The one of the right most is missing. I tried to pull the middle relay, plug into the right bank and all I hear is a little zzzzzz sound. So I pull it off and put it back into the middle bank. Is the right bank the convenience relay you are talking about?
Can it be replaced with any modern relay (square) or does it have to be a specific relay?
Thanks.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mysterytrain
First off, your interior lights should operate when the door is opened. The door switch is providing a ground for that circuit. If they are not operating and the bulbs are good that would indicate that the switches are not functioning. The door switch also provides a ground for what I'm calling a convenience relay. If the switches aren't turning on the lights then they are not turning on the convenience relay.
I stumbled upon this relay/harness while gathering parts to convert my car from manual windows to power.
I've doctored a power window schematic to show how this harness and relay interact with the basic circuit.

The power window relay on the left gets power on pin 86 only when the ignition switch is in the 'on/run' position.

The convenience relay on the right is hot at all times but the solenoid only operates when the doors are opened and the door switch provides a path to ground and thus connects power from pin 30 to pin 87.
I'm really not sure what years used this harness. Bentley doesn't make mention of it, but rather shows a more advanced relay that appears to do electronically what the pair of relays that I've shown do.
So again, I'm not sure if your car has this set up or something more advanced.
In the circuit above if the door switch is not working then the convenience relay will not operate, nor will your interior lights.
On the other hand if the contacts between pins 30 and 87 are fused together on either of the relays then the power windows will always operate. You might want to just swap on the relays.

lexpatrier · 06-16-2007, 08:54 PM

hello, i wll need some help. i have a 90 C2 targa and since yesterday, the left window did not work anymore. i have checked the fuse #4 looks ok, i have remove the door panel to check the motor looks ok. the last think i see is the realy #22 but noit sure how to check iot. anyone have an idea?

Thx

JeffreyNMemphis · 06-16-2007, 09:27 PM

The way to check the relay is to swap it out for one that you know is good.

Welcome to Pelican Parts! Post a picture of your new car (tradition) and tell us where you are from.

Jeffrey

rick-l · 06-17-2007, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lexpatrier
hello, i wll need some help. i have a 90 C2 targa and since yesterday, the left window did not work anymore. i have checked the fuse #4 looks ok, i have remove the door panel to check the motor looks ok. the last think i see is the realy #22 but noit sure how to check iot. anyone have an idea?

Thx

It is hard to LOOK at an electrical part and tell if it is ok. Do you have a voltmeter and a schematic?

avt007 · avt007's Garage

My 86 dies after being parked for a while. I have a drain of about 80 milliamps. The culprit seems to be the power window relay. The windows work anytime, key on or not. The only time the relay opens is if the battery is disconnected. It's looking like an internal relay problem. I'll try a new one and see what happens.

rick-l · 05-30-2008, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avt007

My 86 dies after being parked for a while. I have a drain of about 80 milliamps. The culprit seems to be the power window relay. The windows work anytime, key on or not. The only time the relay opens is if the battery is disconnected. It's looking like an internal relay problem. I'll try a new one and see what happens.

The relay is also energized by the door switch. Do your lights work OK?

avt007 · avt007's Garage

Here's a few things I learned- first off, the internals of the relay aren't even close to the Bentley drawings, which show two transistor like things. The relay is quite simple, and it's wired so that when the key is on, the relay closes to power the windows. When you turn the key off, the relay remains closed, until the door is opened, at which point the power windows stop working.
I can't be bothered to chase all the wiring in the car, so I disabled the door part of the relay by disconnecting a diode inside the relay. Now when I turn the key off, the relay relaxes, and that drain is longer there on my bettery. I'm down to the draw from my radio, which jumps between 3-10 milliamps. I'm interested to see how much better the problem is. It was such a pain, I installed a battery shutoff switch that I had lying around.
As for the door lights, neither side works, which would indicate both switches are bad. I will look into replacing them ,and if I want, I can put the relay back the way it was. But in the meantime, my battery won't die.

rick-l · 05-30-2008, 07:29 PM

It is not all that complicated.
Window relay

Quote:

Originally Posted by avt007

When you turn the key off, the relay remains closed, until the door is opened, at which point the power windows stop working.

No... the windows work with the door open OR when the ignition is on

Quote:

Originally Posted by avt007

I can't be bothered to chase all the wiring in the car, so I disabled the door part of the relay by disconnecting a diode inside the relay.

which diode did you remove?

The door switch fix is pretty cheap (rubber, washer and plunger).

avt007 · avt007's Garage

I beg to differ- a quote from the owners manual; "When the ignition is turned off or the ignition key removed, the power windows can be operated until one door is opened."
That's how the circuit is built. I reverse engineered mine as well. Sorry, but I couldn't see the schematics in that other post.

rick-l · 05-30-2008, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avt007

I beg to differ- a quote from the owners manual; "When the ignition is turned off or the ignition key removed, the power windows can be operated until one door is opened."
That's how the circuit is built. I reverse engineered mine as well. Sorry, but I couldn't see the schematics in that other post.

Your 86 must be different from my 88.

We are talking about a 911 and not a Boxster correct?

Why couldn't you see the schematic? It's a JPG just like all the other pictures on this site.

avt007 · avt007's Garage

First, the schematic was being blocked by an internet filter that didn't like photobucket. Filters are a pain, but my kids are 13 and 14. And yes, our cars are different. My Bentley manual shows a different design for 84, 85, and 86. 84 seems the best, with no door switches involved. 85 is how mine is wired. I tried t/s using the 86 drawing and soon found that the pin numbers were different. And the biggest difference of all is that my relay only has 4 diodes, one capacitor, one resistor, and no transistors at all. Why they over engineered this is beyond me.
My removal of the diode is only a temp repair. I'll get around to doing the door switches someday, I don't like things in my car that don't work. Of course, I wonder where that current drain is going. I recently replaced the passenger door motor. The drivers door is fine. Thanks for the input Rick, those are nice schematics you've done. I'd post mine, but doing drawings in paint is just too slow for words.

Rob

Blackie911 · 12:27 PM

[QUOTE=avt007;3974883]I beg to differ- a quote from the owners manual; "When the ignition is turned off or the ignition key removed, the power windows can be operated until one door is opened."
That's how the circuit is built.

This is absolutely correct- and is a convenience feature for windows and sunroof which I find very useful. If there are other battery draining problems- that is a separate issue altogether.

rick-l · 05-31-2008, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avt007

I beg to differ- a quote from the owners manual; "When the ignition is turned off or the ignition key removed, the power windows can be operated until one door is opened."
That's how the circuit is built. I reverse engineered mine as well. Sorry, but I couldn't see the schematics in that other post.

My manual says that also but that is not the way it works nor could it with the circuitry that is in the relay.

Blackie911 - any chance you could just open your door and see if the windows work?

avt007 - do you remember the part number off your relay? The PET says the relay in there should be a 944 615 116 00. The one I have in there is a 944 615 112 02 (with a build date of 9/11/1987). I wonder what should be in there?

KatoKato · 06-01-2008, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avt007

My 86 dies after being parked for a while. I have a drain of about 80 milliamps. The culprit seems to be the power window relay. The windows work anytime, key on or not. The only time the relay opens is if the battery is disconnected. It's looking like an internal relay problem. I'll try a new one and see what happens.

How does the power window relay drain the battery?

I am considering moving my power windows from fuse#1 (switched power) to fuse#2 (always hot) to accomodate a fog light mod.

If I do this, i.e. have power to the windows all the time, will this mod drain my battery?

Blackie911 · 06-01-2008, 07:27 AM

Windows and sunroof function fine when you turn off the engine. As soon as you open (or open and close) either door, power to windows and roof is cutoff. This is factory feature- and should be standard on ALL cars as it is very convenient.

avt007 · avt007's Garage

Rick- my relay is p/n 944 615 116 00. Build date 12/85. Kato, the drain is from the relay itself. To hold the relay closed, current flows through the coil, creating a magnetic field. It's not much. but after a wek or two, it makes a difference.

KatoKato · 06-01-2008, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avt007

......Kato, the drain is from the relay itself. To hold the relay closed, current flows through the coil, creating a magnetic field. It's not much. but after a wek or two, it makes a difference.

So If I decide to move my power windows to an unswitched fuse I could drain my battery if left for a couple of weeks?

Please advise...

Cheers,
Kato

rick-l · 06-02-2008, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KatoKato

So If I decide to move my power windows to an unswitched fuse I could drain my battery if left for a couple of weeks?

No... to hold the contacts closed requires a magnetic field which requires a current flow through a coil - the relay is then referred to as energized. The current flowing through the relay causes power to be dissipated in the coil resistance.

depending on which relay you have,

With my relay when the door switch is not grounded (door open) there is current flowing through the relay

With the 944 615 116 00 there is current flowing through the relay until the door switch is grounded. With this relay if your door switches don't work the relay is always on.

Mysterytrain · 06-02-2008, 10:47 AM

I posted that doctored schematic a couple of years ago to explain how that add on circuit worked. I stumbled upon the 'convenience' harness on ebay but was never able to find a factory schematic that showed how it was installed. I pieced together how it worked from questioning other Pelicans about the 'key off, door open' scenario that allowed the power windows to operate. It looks like the factory only used this old technology briefly before moving to a solid state relay box.
In the drawing above the only way the convenience relay operates is when the door jam switch provides a ground. Two possible failure modes would be the contacts 30 and 87 are fused together. With either relay this would allow the windows to always operate. It is also possible for a bad door jam switch to provide a constant ground path. This would keep the convenience relay energized and allow the power windows to operate at all times..and drain the battery.

Mysterytrain · 06-02-2008, 10:48 AM

I posted that doctored schematic a couple of years ago to explain how that add on circuit worked. I stumbled upon the 'convenience' harness on ebay but was never able to find a factory schematic that showed how it was installed. I pieced together how it worked from questioning other Pelicans about the 'key off, door open' scenario that allowed the power windows to operate. It looks like the factory only used this old technology briefly before moving to a solid state relay box.
In the drawing above the only way the convenience relay operates is when the door jam switch provides a ground. Two possible failure modes would be the contacts 30 and 87 are fused together. With either relay this would allow the windows to always operate. It is also possible for a bad door jam switch to provide a constant ground path. This would keep the convenience relay energized and allow the power windows to operate at all times..and drain the battery.