putting a 3.3 in my SC

[kcpaz]

OH, and Yes, Lotus uses Toyota for their drive train. Just like Ford used Yamaha for some of their engine development on the Duratec engines. Not to mention their involvement with Mazda.

My hats off to the Japanese engineers. They can build some bad ass engines.

[mb911]

so the core company is?

[kcpaz]

... a secret


If you are looking for intercooler cores I would start contacting well known manufactures and start asking questions. That's what I did.

[mb911]

yeah did that with no real good leads..

[Duckworth]

Since you say you're surprised at the mostly positive support from the board - a few thoughts of mine crept up.

We seem to like your workmanship - and I think that is the reason you've been treated as nicely as you have.

The work you've done is not lost on me either - but sections of the car as it's going together are giving me some depression - to watch it happen. I'm trying to imagine how 'thrilled' you are with that particular long block lodged in there. All is not sweetness and light...at least to look at.

A quick revisit here:




..Machinined by no human hands - just computer and robotic- cnc hardware. It lacks even Honda Vtec performance layout - and serpentine parts are painful - as seen here. So, at $450 - that is the absolutely correct amount to pay imo.

Let me ask - if you had spent 3 years scouring parts at german swap meets, and 4 - 5 years later had finished up a fresh 3.2 motor ........ would that give you serious skepticism about the route you've chosen ?

...

[kcpaz]

HUH? first of all, what's wrong with parts that are CNC machined by robots and computers. Seriously? Look around you, technology is everywhere. How do you think Porsche machines their engines? or any other serious manufacturer or race team. What point have you made here?

Serpentine parts? Are you referring to the timing belt? That's a kevlar reinforced, toothed belt. And by the way, this isn't an interference motor so even if this belt did break, there would be no damage to the internals. Belt...chain... what's the difference? they both have to be replaced at some point. Either that or the tensions. I would rather replace a belt on a Subaru engine than a chain on a Porsche engine. Ever tried it?

So this engine doesn't have VTEC. Neither does a 3.0 Porsche engine. What's your point? Eventually Subaru did develop a variable valve timing system in their later H6 engines, but this is 1991 technology. When did Porsche introduce VarioCam in the 911's?

If I did waste 4-5 years of my life piecing together a 3.2, That would give me just enough time to put the finishing touches on the time machine I've been working on. Then I could go back in time and kick my own ass for making such a stupid choice. Life is to short for that kind of logic. I'd rather enjoy my $450 engine out on the track.

[averyhabbott]

You've got me hooked. I was originally planning on spending around $5k just to rebuild and slightly beef up my SC motor, but now I'm going to set it aside and work on one of these Subbie engines instead. I'm curious, though. It looks like you had to fab your own mount for the engine. Unfortunately, I, being the busy feller that I am, have not had an opportunity to learn much welding, nor do I have any welding apparati made readily available to me. Is there any way I could get you to fab a second one and mail it my way? Don't worry, I expect to pay for it ;-).

Also, I'm planning on going a little more extreme, when I have the money. Back in the 70's, there were some open wheeled racers (can't remember what class off the top of my head) that actually used a fan at the rear of the car to suck up air from underneath the car and pull it past a radiator. This not only pulled in cool air across the radiator, it also essentially created a vacuum underneath the car. The downforce created by these machines was unbelievable! It was feasible to actually drive one of these cars UPSIDE-DOWN at around 80 mph. Now me personally, I'm not using my backseat, and this car is already going to become a monster, so I figured why not fab a tunnell that leads down through the backseat and pulls air from under the car up past a radiator and exit near where the air intake is? This air added to the air already passing over the wing should create a tremendous amount of downforce, even just with a couple of aftermarket electric fans. I'm sure you're not going to mangle your car in this way, however, but I've been considering a dual-radiator setup (somehow making it similar to the F1 cars of today) and this came across my head, and I felt the need to share it.

A couple of other issues crossed my mind that I'm not sure about. First, what will you do with the stock oil cooler? I was considering keeping it and utilizing an extra oil pump to continue to send the oil along the same lines, and possibly replacing the stock oil cooler with a front-mount. Your thoughts?

Second, electrical. This area has always scared me. If there's an electrical gremlin alive, I've met him. Right off the bat, I'll be replacing the battery and all the thicker-gauge positive wiring. The question on this lies more in the realm of fuses. I'm not for positive, but I'm pretty sure that Subaru uses spade fuses. Will you be replacing the bullet-fuse box you already have? I'm not sure how many ancillary devices will need to be replaced with Subaru-spec stuff, and the thought of re-wiring the whole car is keeping me from sleeping! Your thoughts?

Last (at the moment), are you contemplating upgrading to a turbo at any point? Everything I've read about the EG33 over the last couple of days (since finding your post, actually) points to that particular engine as being bullet-proof. People use it in aeroplanes and operate it for hundreds of thousands of miles without failure. There seem to be more than a few companies out there that are willing to reinforce these subbies even further with minimal cost. I haven't found much in the way of turbocharger kits for them yet, but I haven't particularly been looking, either. Your thoughts?

[kcpaz]

wow... lots of questions. I'll do my best...

Would I make you a motor mount? Sure. I'm in the process of making fixtures for every part I've made, but I don't want to make anything final before I have a chance to test everything thoroughly. As soon as everything is given the green flag, I will figure out how long it takes to reproduce the parts and get a better idea how much everything would cost. Stay tuned.

As far as your ideas for cooling systems. It does sound pretty extreme. Sometimes ideas in your head sound great in your head, but when it comes to actually putting them into practice in a chassis, you will find there isn't as much space as you had envisioned. Anything that would require you to cut out huge parts of the chassis need to be well thought out. You don't want to weaken the chassis without replacing the removed metal in a way that is as strong, or stronger than original. Like with an extensive roll cage. Also, when trying to tackle a big project like an engine conversion, it's best not to make the project so big that you will never get it done. I've seen too many projects started and never finished because the build bit off more than they could chew. It sounds like your fabrication experience is a bit lacking so you should probably keep things as "bolt-on" as possible.

As for the stock oil cooler. I don't see a need for it. If the car was going to be road raced, I could see a need for an oil cooler, but a tail mounted cooler would probably be better (kinda like a 930 intercooler). For a street car, or a street car that runs an DE events, I see no need for an external oil cooler. Remember, this is a water cooled engine

The electrical isn't really a huge deal. You can still use all of the stock Porsche chassis wiring and gauges. The only thing that will change is the wiring for the engine management (maybe a small fuse block added in the engine bay for a few fuses) and the wiring for the fuel pump. I'm going to be using a modified stock Subaru engine harness and ECM. The only way that the chassis wiring and engine wiring need to communicate is through the gauges and those are just a matter of sending units and grounds.

These engines are VERY well build and can make huge HP numbers and still be reliable. However, the compression ratio is too high in stock form and the internals would need to be upgraded for boosted applications. I'm still trying fo decide if I'm going to go with turbo power, of enjoy a reliable NA track car. (I already have a turbo race car)

Hope that answers all of your questions.

[niner11]

Nice work and good luck with the motor install.....that was best 450.00 that you could have spent.

BTW, I post on several other car websites that only judge you by the quality of your work...not by the manufacturer of the parts that you are using. Enjoy the new motor, Chuck

[djb25]

Originally posted by Duckworth
Since you say you're surprised at the mostly positive support from the board - a few thoughts of mine crept up.

-clipped-

Machinined by no human hands - just computer and robotic- cnc hardware. It lacks even Honda Vtec performance layout - and serpentine parts are painful - as seen here. So, at $450 - that is the absolutely correct amount to pay imo.

Let me ask - if you had spent 3 years scouring parts at german swap meets, and 4 - 5 years later had finished up a fresh 3.2 motor ........ would that give you serious skepticism about the route you've chosen ?

...

Yeah, I have no idea what you're getting at here.

1) " Machined by no human hands" - isn't that kind of redundant? Or were there Porsche employees who once machined crankshafts using nothing but their fingernails and elbow grease?

2) Serpentine belts are pretty commonplace these days - what do you mean by "painful?"

3) I don't have any idea what "Honda Vtec" has to do with Porsche or Subaru... and I have even less of an idea of what you are referring to by "honda vtec performance layout." Vtec is Honda's variable valve-timing setup, right? Where are you going with this?

And lastly...

4) "Three years scouring parts" doesn't exactly strike my soul with painful feelings of missed opportunities ... why would that arouse skepticism in the guy building this car?

Frankly, what's happened here is that a guy has stuck a watercooled, wet-sumped flat-six in a Porsche 911. Didn't Porsche do that a few years back?

- Damion

[Duckworth]

"first of all, what's wrong with parts that are CNC machined by robots and computers. Seriously ?"

Precision machining by itself is well and good, however, if the result appears to resemble even remotely - stuff seen in a Toy shop - then imo you are missing something. Porsche 911's are beautiful. Hello ? The overall appearance of the drivetrain does matter.

Ever have a close look at a 911 case from '69 thru '89 as they are being restored? Yeah, computers and technology contributed BUT they still have a handmade quality to them, no question. Look at the pipes you welded up thus far.....nice job....and you may start to see what I'm saying - regardless of how quickly you get the car to a track and save serious coin...

Ok, about this :

"If I did waste 4-5 years of my life piecing together a 3.2, That would give me just enough time to put the finishing touches on the time machine I've been working on. Then I could go back in time and kick my own ass for making such a stupid choice."

So, to be clear - having a pristine and 'built' 3.2 wrapped and ready in your garage - after taking your time and receiving some help from Pelican friends - that would 'not' have you smiling from ear to ear ??? While true that 'time to completion' is a factor to consider, a vintage car should have a certain 'build quality' if you're going to appreciate the car for many years.....People tend to forget this when building one-offs....The latest and greatest technologies aren't always as 'great' as we imagine them to be.

[JeffreyNMemphis]

KC,

My positive comments got me subscribed to the thread and I still look forward to seeing some video of you going fast in the car. Reading negative comments here reminds me of the scene in "Little Miss Sunshine" when the dad is telling his precious little girl that eating a scoop of ice cream will lead to her becoming fat. I hope that you can take the silly comments lightly and continue to enjoy your project, and still share the fun with those of us who like what we see.

I have a Japanese radio in my car, so I guess I won't be subjecting my Porsche to the rigors of cyber-concours judging.

[matty74]

I have a 3.0 flatsix subaru in my outback 2005 very nice engine I love the car, but the 3.0 sc motor in my porsche is somthing else entirely.

[kcpaz]

Originally posted by Duckworth
"first of all, what's wrong with parts that are CNC machined by robots and computers. Seriously ?"

Precision machining by itself is well and good, however, if the result appears to resemble even remotely - stuff seen in a Toy shop - then imo you are missing something. Porsche 911's are beautiful. Hello ? The overall appearance of the drivetrain does matter.

Ever have a close look at a 911 case from '69 thru '89 as they are being restored? Yeah, computers and technology contributed BUT they still have a handmade quality to them, no question. Look at the pipes you welded up thus far.....nice job....and you may start to see what I'm saying - regardless of how quickly you get the car to a track and save serious coin...

Ok, about this :

"If I did waste 4-5 years of my life piecing together a 3.2, That would give me just enough time to put the finishing touches on the time machine I've been working on. Then I could go back in time and kick my own ass for making such a stupid choice."

So, to be clear - having a pristine and 'built' 3.2 wrapped and ready in your garage - after taking your time and receiving some help from Pelican friends - that would 'not' have you smiling from ear to ear ??? While true that 'time to completion' is a factor to consider, a vintage car should have a certain 'build quality' if you're going to appreciate the car for many years.....People tend to forget this when building one-offs....The latest and greatest technologies aren't always as 'great' as we imagine them to be.

Well look man. It's ovbious you have a heart for keeping things original, and "vintage". In this case, I don't. So we have a difference in opinion. Nothing you say will change my mind, and nothing I say will change yours. I know I will enjoy my car as much as you enjoy yours, but for completely different reasons. Maybe we can agree to disagree.

[ljowdy]

Personally, I have to agree with "kcpaz" Afterall, it's his car and no one else has to drive it or like it. If kcpaz likes it then it's OK.

What if he had a Classic 1940 Ford and decided to install a Chevy 350 cid? Is that bad?? (Personally, I'd install a Ford 351) who really cares??

Those that get obsessed with originality have a problem. Kind of like being a religious zealot. Pray to my god or don't pray at all

As much as I love driving my 73, I have to agree that the Subaru is a superbly built engine that can take punishment beyond most people's ability to comprehend.

[Duckworth]

"It's ovbious you have a heart for keeping things original, and "vintage". In this case, I don't. So we have a difference in opinion. Nothing you say will change my mind, and nothing I say will change yours. I know I will enjoy my car as much as you enjoy yours, but for completely different reasons."

Alright bro, ......was enjoying the debate....thought maybe you were too.

Keep us updated on how you feel the car performs when finished...but please give us all of it - (good and bad)..

Some guys are loathe to admit even one negative aspect about a conversion they've performed. Like it reflects badly on them or something. ..It's your unique project, but until the car is shaken down properly, we won't know the end result.


_______________

[kcpaz]

Originally Posted by Duckworth

"It's ovbious you have a heart for keeping things original, and "vintage". In this case, I don't. So we have a difference in opinion. Nothing you say will change my mind, and nothing I say will change yours. I know I will enjoy my car as much as you enjoy yours, but for completely different reasons."

Alright bro, ......was enjoying the debate....thought maybe you were too.

Keep us updated on how you feel the car performs when finished...but please give us all of it - (good and bad)..

Some guys are loathe to admit even one negative aspect about a conversion they've performed. Like it reflects badly on them or something. ..It's your unique project, but until the car is shaken down properly, we won't know the end result.


_______________

Don't get me wrong, I love a good debate, but I would rather not turn this thread into a pissing match

I think we just see things differently. I'm not saying I think your opinion is bad. I understand where you are coming from and I understand that some Porsche enthusiasts HATE the thought of driving a Porsche with anything but a Porsche engine in it. I'm just not one of those people. I think the feedback on this forum has shown that Porsche owners are more accepting than I thought... as long as the work done is of good quality.

Believe me, when this car is up and running, I will post any AND ALL results. Good and bad. I'm not afraid to let people when I've fallen short of perfection. Besides, there isn't anything on this conversion that I don't have the ability to fix. If something doesn't work, I will make it work. That is what I do for a living.

[Marco8]

Hey KC,

Just read this thread, very interesting project! Curious where you live in AZ? If close I would love to see this project first hand. Know it may be too much to ask but if not PM me and we can exchange contact info.

Thanks,

Marco

[Maxx1]

Originally Posted by kcpaz

Wow !! nice work! Sure beats an overweight V8

[Wil Ferch]

Overweight V8 ????

Oh Jeez...now ya gone and done it ..... !

See my many posts on other conversion threads/posts like this. In there, I show that our vaunted, "lightweight all-alloy" engines are relative porkers to the common 'merican V-8. A cast-iron small block V8 with aluminum heads is within spitting distance of the weight of a NA flat six...and considerably lighter than a turbo porsche flat six. Oh yes...and the displacement is about 1.5 -2X of the Porsche. The comparison even looks worse when you consider the Porsche 6 didn't gain much weight as it grew from 2L to almost 3.6 or 3.8. The 2L has to be considered real heavy for its displacement.

Of all the (valid) things one can say about the desirability ( or not) of an American V8 in a Porsche chassis ....let's not perpetuate the myth of "cast-iron lumps" and all that...because if you check into it and do your homework.... it simply isn't true.

- Wil