Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[adias]

Originally Posted by RSBob

Broke down and purchased Porsche Classic oil since it has the correct level of ZDDP for the 3.0.

That oil seems awfully close to a Castrol oil aimed at european cars.

[db_cooper]

Originally Posted by RSBob

Broke down and purchased Porsche Classic oil since it has the correct level of ZDDP for the 3.0.

Not much zinc (770)..aside from the boron..a plain jane 20w50. The 10w60 has more..slightly.

[pmax]

A good discussion on oil is interesting if we can keep to the technical stuff in the technical forum

Here's an article which makes complete sense to me. For what it's worth, that's why I use 10W60.

Preventing Micropitting and Surface Fatigue

Micropitting generally occurs under elastohydrodynamic lubrication (EHL). When the oil film thickness under EHL becomes too thin at the gear pitchline, surface asperities will begin to come into contact. When these asperities contact each other on opposing surfaces and under high load, they cause elastic or plastic deformation, which leads to micropitting.
...
High-viscosity oils also have a greater resistance to micropitting because of their thicker EHL films. However, going to a higher viscosity is not always the best option because it can cause higher operating temperatures, energy loss and/or an increased rate of oil oxidation.
...
Selecting the right viscosity is key in reducing micropitting and surface fatigue. Higher loads will require higher viscosity, while lower loads allow for lower viscosities.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0803sr-modern-engine-oil/

When an engine transitions to WOT (wide-open throttle), elevated rpm, or when the applied load goes up, the oil film “goes down”; this situation can cause a potentially dangerous metal-to-metal contact issue. Increasing the oil viscosity grade will help with deeper, stronger films;

The oil change interval is critical. If the oil is crap at the end, it doesn't matter how good when fresh. Scary chart in the article below which say 3000 miles or less for that example.

http://machinerylubrication.com/Read/477/molecular-spectroscopy-lubrication

To understand the potential problem, consider the fate of one of the most common additives, zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP), an antiwear and antioxidant additive. Depending on formulation, a common AW hydraulic fluid may contain anywhere from 100 ppm to 500 ppm of ZDDP, as measured by the elemental concentrations of zinc and phosphorus. Subjecting an oil containing ZDDP to high temperatures and high levels of moisture will likely result in significant additive depletion due to hydrolysis - a chemical reaction between the ZDDP molecule and water. Under such circumstances, the ultimate by-products of the hydrolysis reaction will likely be zinc salts and phosphates, which although no longer chemically ZDDP, may remain in solution in the oil. The result is that by considering only zinc and phosphorus concentrations, the difference between “good” zinc and phosphorus in the form of ZDDP and “bad” zinc and phosphorus from reaction by-products will be next to impossible to determine.

http://eprints.bournemouth.ac.uk/24502/8/PIL663235.pdf
Comparison of the NMR spectra shows the trend of depletion of ZDDP additive as a function of lubricant duty cycle in engine.Under normal engine running conditions, ZDDP in engine oil decomposes due to oxidation. This process converts P–S compounds into P–O compounds suchthat a shift in the chemical state is noted on the x-axis of the spectra. ... Clearly the spectrum shows the presence of elements such as Zn, P, S and Ca whichare commonly known to be part of ZDDP antiwear additive and calcium-based detergent additive. On other hand, Figure 8(e) shows the spectrum of worn area (see Figure 8(b)) tested with engine-conditioned oil (300 h). Clearly in this case, the above elements of additive package are missing. In addition, the later spectrum is similar to the one shown in Figure 8(d), which is taken at unworn area (see Figure 8(b)).... The curves indicate that a much thicker
boundary film was formed by the fresh lubricant (0 h) than by the engine-conditioned lubricant (300 h)

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by James Brown

costco today

This is Delo 400 SDE which is not the same as the Delo 400 LE that has the proper ZDDP. The SDE has Zinc of 820ppm and Phosphorus at 760ppm. The LE has the higher Zinc and Phosphorus that Bill states in his post.

[James Brown]

"hey oil is oil!"

[Duc Hunter]

A local engine builder here who has been building air cooler race engines since 914 were popular race cars swears by Schaeffer's Synthetic Oil. He now build Caymen race cars and says since switching them to Schaeffers he has not seen a single engine wear/oiling related failure. I have not ben through all 105 pages of this thread, and I have to think there are ways a synthetic could compensate for a lack of ZDDP with other materials in it.

Just a thought, and thought I would put Schaeffers out here for others to comment on.

[James Brown]

sorry

[adias]

Originally Posted by db_cooper

Not much zinc (770)..aside from the boron..a plain jane 20w50. The 10w60 has more..slightly.

Noticed the variation of Universal Averages in those two reports above? Same for my own report (see below). These are basically the same engines and the Universal Averages should match. What's going on?

[pmax]

And here's the VR1 virgin oil analysis for comparison.



VR1 product guide 2015

[Trackrash]

Just found this. Not sure if it is up to date. And according to the Shell website it is no longer available?

[pmax]

Here's a M1 15W50 virgin oil analysis I found on the interweb.



And for comparison, the nominal specs in the product guide.

[KNS]

Somehow I suspected the Mobil 15W-50 wouldn't measure up in the virgin sample. Thanks for posting.

[Trackrash]

2011?

Originally Posted by pmax

here's a m1 15w50 virgin oil analysis i found on the interweb.



and for comparison, the nominal specs in the product guide.

[Hendog]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

Delo 400 LE - 15 W40 is a good oil for our engines, the lower VI leads to less pumping loss, ie higher usable torque
P is 1200PPM
Zn is 1300PPM
both right where you want them to be

Charles Navarro said this in 2010 in another thread:

Originally Posted by cnavarro

I'll second the Brad Penn or Swepco, but steer clear of the CJ-4 oils like Rotella, Delvac, Delo (or anything API SM)

Things change rather quickly in oil formulations so, I would be curious to try Delo 400LE but not sure if it will give my engine the protection I would want. I've read the Delo breaks down quicker, but I could just change it out a little sooner.

[Scotty2H]

I've done a bit of searching, but couldn't find much info that wasn't marketing. Had an oil change at my local indy Porsche shop and they used an oil called Cam2 supermax pro 20w-50. Seems to be a low cost oil but I can't find any info as it relates to use in our cars.

Any thoughts / experience?

CAM2 SuperPro Max Synthetic blend 20W-50: CAM2

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Scotty2H

I've done a bit of searching, but couldn't find much info that wasn't marketing. Had an oil change at my local indy Porsche shop and they used an oil called Cam2 supermax pro 20w-50. Seems to be a low cost oil but I can't find any info as it relates to use in our cars.

Any thoughts / experience?

CAM2 SuperPro Max Synthetic blend 20W-50: CAM2

Can't say. They do not publish any data on ZDDP, Zn, P, TBN, etc. if you want to see if you can find a Virgin Oil Analysis (VOA), try looking at bobistheoilguy.com

[Trackrash]

Titanium?

Interesting read from https://bobistheoilguy.com/engine-oil-analysis/

"Titanium is a newer, more environmentally friendly anti-wear additive being implemented due to more stringent emissions regulations, and is phasing out the older, more harmful phosphorous compounds such as ZDDP (Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate). ZDDP reduces the effectiveness of the catalysts in catalytic converters by creating a plating effect when combusted, and covering the catalyst while Titanium does not. Titanium chemically binds to wear surfaces creating a hard, Titanium based oxide layer which reduces friction, thereby reducing wear. Concentration levels vary greatly depending on oil brand."

[tito911s]

Originally Posted by Trackrash

Titanium

Titanium is a newer, more environmentally friendly anti-wear additive being implemented due to more stringent emissions regulations, and is phasing out the older, more harmful phosphorous compounds such as ZDDP (Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate). ZDDP reduces the effectiveness of the catalysts in catalytic converters by creating a plating effect when combusted, and covering the catalyst while Titanium does not. Titanium chemically binds to wear surfaces creating a hard, Titanium based oxide layer which reduces friction, thereby reducing wear. Concentration levels vary greatly depending on oil brand.

Interesting read from https://bobistheoilguy.com/engine-oil-analysis/

Delo 400 le is on sale at advanced auto parts. But it seems that most locations now stock the superseded SDE .

Still unclear how it's formulated different. But would welcome thoughts as I just bought a bunch.


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[kyngfish]

Having this issue right now as well. After switching from the VR 1 to the Delo LE, I noticed it seems to run a little nicer and also slightly cooler. But the SDE has significantly less Zinc. According to Chevrons spec sheet it goes from .12 to .08. Now I'm wondering if Rotella is a viable option or if I need to go back to VR1. It doesn't make sense to me to use such high viscosity oils in our cars. If most damage occurs during cold start, wouldn't better flow just be all around better? Even if it seeps into more places due to tolerances, as long as I'm not leaking oil, why would I want oil to have a harder time circulating on start? (Full disclosure. Not an engineer so I'm genuinely curious). If anything I'm burning LESS oil with the 15w30 than the 20w50. But I have nothing to go on other than my periodic measurements and how it feels to drive. I welcome any pointers.

For what it's worth I'm going to do a virgin oil analysis of the latest Rotella T4 since I can't find anything on the web.

[tito911s]

Originally Posted by kyngfish

Having this issue right now as well. After switching from the VR 1 to the Delo LE, I noticed it seems to run a little nicer and also slightly cooler. But the SDE has significantly less Zinc. According to Chevrons spec sheet it goes from .12 to .08. Now I'm wondering if Rotella is a viable option or if I need to go back to VR1. It doesn't make sense to me to use such high viscosity oils in our cars. If most damage occurs during cold start, wouldn't better flow just be all around better? Even if it seeps into more places due to tolerances, as long as I'm not leaking oil, why would I want oil to have a harder time circulating on start? (Full disclosure. Not an engineer so I'm genuinely curious). If anything I'm burning LESS oil with the 15w30 than the 20w50. But I have nothing to go on other than my periodic measurements and how it feels to drive. I welcome any pointers.

For what it's worth I'm going to do a virgin oil analysis of the latest Rotella T4 since I can't find anything on the web.

Could be wrong, but the Chevron website pegs Zn at .13 and P at .12, which are ok, right? BTW, I am glad to be wrong.