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2021 Model Y 2005 Cayenne Turbo 2012 Panamera 4S 1980 911 SC 1999 996 Cab |
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10-06-2007, 05:33 PM
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Stranger on the Internet
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Bradenton, FL
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Scott:
As I can't read anything on your AFR graphs, can you give an overview of where the AFR's were during the test? Were these AFR's read off your logging system, or was there an AFR probe in the tailpipe attached to the dyno? That engine should make a boatload of power. Pat
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Patrick E. Keefe 78 SC |
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10-06-2007, 05:42 PM
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It's very difficult to figure out what your full throttle air/fuel ratio is vs rpm is from your pictures. Can you just summarize it for us in 500 rpm increments from 1000 to 6500 rpm? My guess it that you are running way too rich - I though I saw an AFR around 8.5:1, is that right? 42 lb. injectors is more than big enough for your motor, probably should be using something like 26 lb.
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10-06-2007, 05:45 PM
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First column is time, second is SecL, third is RPM fourth is MAP, sixth is lambda
479.747 124 30 79 0 1.529 479.809 124 31 79 0 1.549 479.873 124 30 79 0 1.549 479.936 124 31 79 0 1.588 479.996 124 31 78 0 1.529 480.059 125 30 79 0 1.588 480.122 125 30 80 0 1.529 480.184 125 30 80 0 1.588 480.249 125 31 80 0 1.529 480.308 125 31 80 0 1.549 480.372 125 31 80 0 1.549 480.434 125 31 80 0 1.608 480.496 125 32 80 0 1.51 480.558 125 31 80 0 1.608 480.622 125 31 80 0 1.569 480.684 125 32 80 0 1.608 480.748 125 32 80 0 1.549 480.811 125 31 80 0 1.549 480.871 125 33 80 0 1.608 480.934 125 32 80 0 1.647 480.998 125 32 80 0 1.627 481.061 126 32 80 0 1.608 481.124 126 32 80 0 1.569 481.183 126 32 80 0 1.627 481.248 126 32 80 0 1.627 481.311 126 31 79 0 1.608 481.374 126 32 79 0 1.627 481.433 126 33 79 0 1.627 481.497 126 32 79 0 1.627 481.559 126 32 79 0 1.608 481.622 126 32 79 0 1.686 481.684 126 33 79 0 1.686 481.748 126 33 79 0 1.667 481.809 126 33 79 0 1.608 481.873 126 33 79 0 1.451 481.933 126 33 79 0 1.49 481.996 126 33 79 0 1.569 482.058 127 33 79 0 1.706 482.122 127 33 79 0 1.569 482.184 127 33 79 0 1.667 482.249 127 33 79 0 1.667 482.308 127 33 79 0 1.667 482.372 127 33 79 0 1.765 482.434 127 34 79 0 1.745 482.498 127 33 79 0 1.804 482.561 127 33 79 0 1.765 482.621 127 34 79 0 1.745 482.684 127 34 79 0 1.667 482.748 127 35 79 0 1.745 482.811 127 35 79 0 1.784 482.874 127 34 79 0 1.745 482.933 127 34 79 0 1.686 482.997 127 35 79 0 1.686 483.059 128 34 79 0 1.725 483.121 128 35 79 0 1.667 483.183 128 35 79 0 1.706 483.249 128 35 79 0 1.686 483.308 128 35 79 0 1.627 483.372 128 36 79 0 1.686 483.434 128 35 79 0 1.745 483.498 128 35 78 0 1.725 483.559 128 35 79 0 1.745 483.623 128 35 79 0 1.765 483.686 128 35 79 0 1.804 483.749 128 36 79 0 1.784 483.808 128 35 79 0 1.765 483.872 128 35 79 0 1.725 483.934 128 35 79 0 1.745 483.996 128 36 79 0 1.824 484.058 129 36 79 0 1.784 484.122 129 36 79 0 1.765 484.184 129 37 79 0 1.824 484.246 129 37 79 0 1.745 484.308 129 37 79 0 1.784 484.372 129 37 79 0 1.824 484.435 129 36 79 0 1.804 484.499 129 36 79 0 1.745 484.558 129 37 79 0 1.843 484.621 129 37 79 0 1.863 484.683 129 37 79 0 1.804 484.747 129 37 79 0 1.804 484.809 129 36 79 0 1.804 484.871 129 37 79 0 1.765 484.933 129 37 79 0 1.804 484.997 129 37 79 0 1.824 485.059 130 37 79 0 1.765 485.122 130 38 79 0 1.745 485.184 130 37 79 0 1.725 485.246 130 37 79 0 1.725 485.309 130 38 79 0 1.863 485.373 130 38 79 0 1.706 485.436 130 38 79 0 1.667 485.499 130 39 78 0 1.588 485.558 130 38 78 0 1.667 485.622 130 40 79 0 1.745 485.685 130 39 79 0 1.765 485.748 130 38 79 0 1.686 485.811 130 38 78 0 1.686 485.871 130 39 78 0 1.725 485.933 130 39 78 0 1.804 485.997 130 39 78 0 1.725 486.059 131 39 78 0 1.784 486.123 131 38 78 0 1.804 486.184 131 39 78 0 1.784 486.246 131 40 78 0 1.745 486.308 131 38 78 0 1.824 486.371 131 39 78 0 1.765 486.433 131 39 78 0 1.824 486.497 131 40 78 0 1.725 486.559 131 40 79 0 1.686 486.621 131 40 79 0 1.588 486.683 131 40 79 0 1.608 486.747 131 39 79 0 1.569 486.809 131 40 78 0 1.608 486.873 131 40 78 0 1.667 486.936 131 40 78 0 1.569 486.996 131 40 78 0 1.608 487.059 132 40 78 0 1.725 487.123 132 40 78 0 1.745 487.186 132 40 78 0 1.706 487.249 132 40 78 0 1.392 487.308 132 40 78 0 1.412 487.372 132 41 78 0 1.431 487.436 132 41 78 0 1.49 487.499 132 41 78 0 1.49 487.56 132 41 78 0 1.569 487.623 132 41 78 0 1.686 487.688 132 41 78 0 1.49 487.749 132 41 78 0 1.412 487.808 132 42 78 0 1.608 487.872 132 40 78 0 1.412 487.935 132 41 78 0 1.529 487.999 132 42 78 0 1.392 488.058 133 41 78 0 1.529 488.121 133 43 78 0 1.373 488.183 133 42 78 0 1.353 488.249 133 42 78 0 1.549 488.308 133 42 78 0 1.529 488.374 133 41 78 0 1.549 488.433 133 43 78 0 1.529 488.497 133 42 78 0 1.686 488.559 133 43 78 0 1.627 488.622 133 43 78 0 1.686 488.684 133 42 79 0 1.51 488.748 133 43 79 0 1.216 488.809 133 42 79 0 1.333 488.873 133 44 79 0 1.275 488.936 133 44 78 0 1.49 488.999 133 44 78 0 1.549 489.058 134 42 78 0 1.412 489.122 134 43 78 0 1.412 489.184 134 42 78 0 1.608 489.249 134 43 78 0 1.412 489.308 134 44 78 0 1.471 489.372 134 44 78 0 1.392 489.434 134 45 78 0 1.529 489.498 134 43 78 0 1.49 489.561 134 44 78 0 1.471 489.621 134 43 78 0 1.51 489.684 134 44 78 0 1.569 489.748 134 44 79 0 1.51 489.811 134 45 78 0 1.471 489.874 134 44 78 0 1.529 489.933 134 45 78 0 1.51 489.997 134 44 78 0 1.569 490.059 135 45 78 0 1.471 490.124 135 45 78 0 1.569 490.183 135 44 78 0 1.49 490.249 135 44 78 0 1.549 490.308 135 45 78 0 1.529 490.372 135 44 78 0 1.471 490.434 135 45 78 0 1.216 490.498 135 46 78 0 1 490.559 135 46 78 0 0.863 490.623 135 45 78 0 0.765 490.686 135 44 78 0 0.706 490.749 135 46 78 0 0.667 490.808 135 45 78 0 0.627 490.872 135 44 78 0 0.627 490.934 135 45 78 0 0.608 490.996 135 46 78 0 0.588 491.058 136 47 78 0 0.588 491.122 136 45 78 0 0.588 491.184 136 45 78 0 0.569 491.246 136 44 78 0 0.569 491.308 136 47 78 0 0.569 491.372 136 47 78 0 0.569 491.435 136 47 78 0 0.569 491.499 136 47 78 0 0.569 491.558 136 45 77 0 0.549 491.621 136 46 77 0 0.549 491.683 136 46 78 0 0.549 491.747 136 46 78 0 0.549 491.809 136 47 78 0 0.549 491.871 136 48 78 0 0.549 491.933 136 47 78 0 0.549 491.997 136 48 78 0 0.549 492.059 137 50 78 0 0.549 492.123 137 48 78 0 0.549 492.186 137 50 78 0 0.549 492.248 137 48 78 0 0.549 492.309 137 48 78 0 0.549 492.373 137 48 78 0 0.549 492.436 137 48 78 0 0.549 492.499 137 48 78 0 0.549 492.558 137 47 78 0 0.549 492.622 137 50 78 0 0.529 492.684 137 50 78 0 0.549 492.746 137 50 78 0 0.549 492.808 137 50 78 0 0.549 492.872 137 50 78 0 0.569 492.934 137 48 78 0 0.569 492.998 137 48 78 0 0.569 493.061 138 47 77 0 0.569 493.121 138 48 77 0 0.569 493.184 138 48 77 0 0.569 493.246 138 48 77 0 0.569 493.308 138 47 78 0 0.569 493.371 138 50 78 0 0.549 493.433 138 50 78 0 0.549 493.497 138 50 78 0 0.549 493.559 138 50 78 0 0.549 493.621 138 48 78 0 0.549 493.683 138 50 78 0 0.549 493.747 138 48 78 0 0.549 493.809 138 51 78 0 0.549 493.873 138 50 77 0 0.549 493.936 138 51 77 0 0.549 493.996 138 51 77 0 0.549 494.059 138 50 77 0 0.529 494.123 139 50 77 0 0.549 494.186 139 51 77 0 0.549 494.249 139 50 76 0 0.549 494.308 139 51 77 0 0.549 494.372 139 50 77 0 0.549 494.434 139 50 77 0 0.529 494.496 139 54 77 0 0.529 494.558 139 50 77 0 0.529 494.622 139 51 77 0 0.529 494.684 139 52 77 0 0.529 494.748 139 52 77 0 0.529 494.811 139 52 77 0 0.529 494.871 139 52 77 0 0.549 494.934 139 51 77 0 0.549 494.998 139 54 77 0 0.549 495.061 139 51 77 0 0.549 495.121 140 52 77 0 0.549 495.183 140 52 77 0 0.549 495.249 140 51 77 0 0.549 495.308 140 52 77 0 0.549 495.374 140 51 77 0 0.549 495.433 140 52 76 0 0.549 495.497 140 54 77 0 0.549 495.559 140 52 77 0 0.549 495.621 140 54 77 0 0.549 495.684 140 52 77 0 0.549 495.748 140 54 77 0 0.549 495.809 140 52 77 0 0.549 495.873 140 54 77 0 0.549 495.936 140 52 77 0 0.549 495.999 140 52 77 0 0.549 496.058 140 54 77 0 0.549 496.122 141 54 77 0 0.549 496.184 141 54 77 0 0.549 496.249 141 54 77 0 0.549 496.308 141 52 77 0 0.549 496.372 141 52 77 0 0.549 496.434 141 54 77 0 0.549 496.498 141 54 77 0 0.549 496.561 141 54 77 0 0.569 496.621 141 54 77 0 0.922 496.684 141 54 77 0 1.314 496.748 141 54 77 0 1.314 496.811 141 52 77 0 1.314 496.874 141 54 77 0 1.235 496.933 141 54 77 0 1.235 496.997 141 54 77 0 1.294 497.059 141 55 77 0 1.294 497.121 142 54 77 0 1.216 497.183 142 54 77 0 1.216 497.249 142 54 76 0 1.216 497.308 142 55 77 0 1.314 497.372 142 55 77 0 1.333 497.434 142 55 77 0 1.294 497.498 142 55 77 0 1.255 497.559 142 55 77 0 1.275 497.623 142 55 77 0 1.255 497.686 142 54 77 0 1.176 497.749 142 57 77 0 1.235 497.808 142 55 77 0 1.255 497.872 142 54 77 0 1.255 497.934 142 55 77 0 1.294 497.996 142 55 77 0 1.255 498.058 142 54 77 0 1.235 498.122 143 55 77 0 1.275 498.184 143 55 77 0 1.216 498.246 143 55 77 0 1.255 498.308 143 57 77 0 1.216 498.372 143 57 77 0 1.235 498.435 143 55 77 0 1.235 498.499 143 55 76 0 1.275 498.558 143 57 76 0 1.255 498.621 143 55 75 0 1.255 498.683 143 57 76 0 1.294 498.747 143 57 77 0 1.294 498.809 143 58 77 0 1.275 498.871 143 55 77 0 1.216 498.933 143 57 77 0 1.235 498.997 143 57 77 0 1.196 499.059 143 57 77 0 1.137 499.123 144 57 77 0 1.216 499.186 144 57 77 0 1.216 499.248 144 55 77 0 1.176 499.309 144 58 77 0 1.216 499.373 144 57 77 0 1.216 499.436 144 58 77 0 1.216 499.499 144 57 77 0 1.157 499.558 144 57 77 0 1.196 499.622 144 57 77 0 1.098 499.684 144 57 77 0 1.176 499.746 144 58 77 0 1.176 499.808 144 57 77 0 1.137 499.872 144 58 77 0 1.157 499.934 144 57 77 0 1.176 499.998 144 57 77 0 1.176 500.061 144 57 77 0 1.196 500.124 145 57 77 0 1.216 500.185 145 58 77 0 1.078 500.247 145 57 77 0 1.176 500.309 145 57 77 0 1.176 500.374 145 58 77 0 1.137 500.433 145 57 77 0 1.098 500.497 145 58 77 0 1.078 500.559 145 58 77 0 1.078 500.621 145 58 77 0 1.118 500.683 145 58 77 0 1.098 500.747 145 58 77 0 1.098 500.809 145 60 76 0 1.078 500.873 145 60 76 0 1.216 500.936 145 58 76 0 1.196 500.996 145 60 77 0 1.176 501.059 145 58 77 0 1.059 501.123 146 58 77 0 1.039 501.186 146 58 77 0 1.078 501.249 146 60 77 0 1.059 501.308 146 60 77 0 1.098 501.372 146 60 76 0 1.098 501.434 146 58 76 0 1.118 501.496 146 58 76 0 1.137 501.558 146 60 76 0 1.078 501.622 146 60 76 0 1.137 501.684 146 57 76 0 1.137 501.748 146 58 76 0 1.137 501.811 146 60 76 0 1.059 501.871 146 60 76 0 1.098 501.934 146 60 76 0 1.098 501.998 146 60 76 0 1.098 502.061 146 60 77 0 1.118 502.124 147 58 77 0 1.078 502.183 147 60 76 0 0.961 502.248 147 62 76 0 1.098 502.311 147 60 76 0 1.118 502.374 147 60 75 0 1.118
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2021 Model Y 2005 Cayenne Turbo 2012 Panamera 4S 1980 911 SC 1999 996 Cab |
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10-06-2007, 06:06 PM
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This pull was AFTER we cut the VE bins by 40% in all the regions above 3000 RPM. Another thing t mention is that it only really idles rich, only ever has, this engine or the last. On top of that the MAP floats from bin to bin at idle and sometimes driving, it never parks on a number and just stays there.
EDIT: Forgot to add, any leaner and she bucks pretty bad in most bins, that and I have had a two year on-going accel issue where if you stomp on it it surges three times then takes off.
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2021 Model Y 2005 Cayenne Turbo 2012 Panamera 4S 1980 911 SC 1999 996 Cab Last edited by Scott R; 10-06-2007 at 06:11 PM.. |
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10-06-2007, 06:08 PM
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If that last column is really your mixture, then you need to start over. That lambda is all over the place, which equates to an AFR from 8:1(superrich) all the way to 22:1 (running on vapors). I'm surprised your LC-1 can even read that extreme. You should be targeting an Lambda of 0.88 at full throttle.
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10-06-2007, 06:31 PM
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Steve, what AFR does a .88 lamda equate to?
Cheers
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Turn3 Autosport- Full Service and Race Prep www.turn3autosport.com 997 S 4.0, Cayman S 3.8, Cayenne Turbo, Macan Turbo, 69 911, Mini R53 JCW , RADICAL SR3 |
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10-06-2007, 06:35 PM
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Wideband O2 voltage
Lambda vs. AFR for various fuels
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10-06-2007, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
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10-06-2007, 06:41 PM
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Location: MA USA
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Quote:
Your accel issue sounds like it is rich. If it is lean it will backfire in the intake. Can you see any black smoke on accel? I also think your injectors are big enough. I am running 55lb injectors in my car and I have more than twice your hp and mine are close to maxed out.
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Dean 911 SC turbo, 3.0L 930 motor, G50, 930 brakes, DTA EFI, 352 RWHP DynoDynamic dyno, |
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10-06-2007, 06:47 PM
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If you are using the stock 1980 dizzy then that is probably your problem. It doesn't have enough advance to do the job. You can use a 78-79 dizzy set to 7 degrees BTDC or so at idle or get your dizzy recurved.
-Andy
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10-06-2007, 06:54 PM
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So, get a new distributor? Or get a new engine management system? Or switch back to CIS or carbs.... After a very expensive rebuild there is not a lot left in the kitty this year.
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10-06-2007, 07:01 PM
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One more thing to add, what shows up as lean may actually be too rich. Overrich mixtures will foul plugs, causing misfires, which end up blowing O2 into the exhaust which the O2 sensor will read as a lean mixture. Anything over 1.2-1.3 lambda would be suspicious to me.
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10-06-2007, 07:14 PM
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2021 Model Y 2005 Cayenne Turbo 2012 Panamera 4S 1980 911 SC 1999 996 Cab |
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10-06-2007, 07:25 PM
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Author of "101 Projects"
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I would start with the basics. Run a compression check, and put the CIS system back on to check the integrity of the rebuild. Then dyno with the CIS on in order to get a baseline.
Steve is right, lambda should be close to 1.0 at almost all times. On modern cars, it's scary accurate all the time, even under accel... -Wayne
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Wayne R. Dempsey, Founder, Pelican Parts Inc., and Author of: 101 Projects for Your BMW 3-Series • 101 Projects for Your Porsche 911 • How to Rebuild & Modify Porsche 911 Engines • 101 Projects for Your Porsche Boxster & Cayman • 101 Projects for Your Porsche 996 / 997 • SPEED READ: Porsche 911 Check out our new site: Dempsey Motorsports |
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10-06-2007, 07:40 PM
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I would rather be driving
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 9,108
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I have done quite a bit of tuning with a MS system. 42# injectors are WAY TOO BIG for your motor. I am using #30 pound injectors on a stock internal 3.0 and had to really drop the fuel pressure to get them to work. The car runs great at speed but my off-idle response is bad. I suspect I might be dribbling fuel just to keep a reasonable AFR at idle. I have some 21# to raise the fuel pressure to a reasonable level.
there is no way that you can control a short pulsewidth with an MS1 box and high-impedance injectors of that size. I agree that your AFR run looks really rich. You are showing ~10:1 at 6K. that will just bog the system and give horrible throttle response. Did you do any road tuning before going to the dyno? I have not spent any dyno time and my car runs so much better than it did with carbs. There is a very methodical method for tuning EFI. Its not that hard but can be time consuming if you don't follow the rules. first turn off all accel enrichments. When the engine is warm. tune the no-load sites with the car sitting in the driveway and using the idle screw to hit rpm bins. once you have a stable AFR in these regions start driving the car. next you need to build an AFR table. you need to see where your MAP level is on level ground for the rpm bands. These will be your cruise sites and you can probably target around 14.5:1. maybe a little leaner. Then make your AFR table by smoothly blending the curve to 12.9:1 or so at any MAP reading above 70kPa. the low load sites (high vacuum - probably 30-50 kPa) can go a bit leaner maybe 15:1. Now drive the car and datalog. the first drives will be steady throttle at each rpm band in your AFR table. Try to hit them exactly. use different gears and the flattest terrain you can find. next move to a slight sloping hill and finally a steeper hill. then you can go to the WOT and high load sites. I see you are already using MegalogViewer. If you have a good AFR table, use the VE analyzer. It works very well. keep driving, logging and analyzing. it will take 4 or 5 runs before you really start to feel a difference. If you take your time and really build a solid VE table you will have a fantastic running car. Then tune accel parameters to get rid of transition throttle stumbles.
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Jamie - I can explain it to you. But I can not understand it for you. 71 911T SWT - Sun and Fun Mobile 72 911T project car. "Minne" - A tangy version of tangerine #projectminne classicautowerks.com - EFI conversion parts and suspension setups. IG Classicautowerks Last edited by jpnovak; 10-06-2007 at 08:06 PM.. |
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10-06-2007, 07:57 PM
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Scott,
you got me cursious and I fired up Megatune with a MS-1 configuration to take a look at the settings. When you say that fuel settings do not make a difference something is WRONG. You should see differences every time you make changes. Maybe you don't "BURN" the values to the controller. Or something is wrong with your injector settings and they are not controlled properly. Maybe they are really way to big and this is why you are having issues. If I were you, I would start over: Save the current settings so that you have something to go back to in case and start with a clean sheet. The first thing you need to do is to make sure the injector characteristics are set properly in the "Constant Value" tab. There is a pretty good writeup on the Megatune website. Follow it to the dot. Make sure the number of squirts is set correctly. Next generate a generic VE table (Megatune can do this for you), disable all the acceleration enrichments and get the car warmed up and idling. You should see a change in the A/F ratio once you change the "Required Fuel" value. This the base fuel quantity for your engine. Everything else will hinge on this. If you change this value it is equivalent to adding or substracting a constant to the entire VE table. I set it so that the lowest bins are around 30 - 50. When I change the "required fuel" value on the Type 4 I see a clear difference of A/F at idle. A change from 6.5mS to 7.0mS is visible on the wideband chanel. Every time you change something make sure you "BURN" the values to the controller. If not, they will be discarded once you power-cylce the MS-I. Next, do data logging while driving around. This will be the best source for fine-tuning the fuel map.
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1974 Targa 3.6, 2001 C4 (sold), 2019 GT3RS, 2000 ML430 I repair/rebuild Bosch CDI Boxes and Porsche Motronic DMEs Porsche "Hammer" or Porsche PST2, PIWIS III - I can help!! How about a NoBadDays DualChip for 964 or '95 993 |
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10-06-2007, 11:26 PM
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Wer bremst verliert
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 4,767
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I had a similar experience recently, that thread here: Engine Build Dyno Results
How does it drive, other than the idle issue? I run 26# injectors on my 3.0 race car without a problem.
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10-07-2007, 12:50 AM
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Scott,
one more thing: When I run the "Required Fuel" calculation with your injector size (42lb/h) for a 3000cc engine I get a suggested injector time of 7.6ms per cylinder while your msq file uses 11.6ms. Your setting is more than 50% higher  This might explain why your data logs show rich conditions.I still have my money on your engine running too rich and would try to verify this. Don't be concerned with peak HP for now. First get it to idle well and to drive well under medium load and cruising. The peak HP tuning on a dyno is last after you have dialed in your A/F's with lots of driving and data logging. Ask me how I know; I have had the Type 4 on a dyno way too early. What a waste of time. And I tried to cheat around proper tuning by using closed loop with the wide-band sensor (MS-II). Well, to cut a long story short, I didn't even ask the dyno guy to print out the runs, that's how sh|tty they were. I had to go back to the drawing board, disable the cloosed loop and do some old-fashioned data looging. And it made a world of a difference in driveabiltity. Can you get a second independent LM-1 handheld O2 meter with a second wide-band O2-sensor into the tailpipe to verify your mixture? What are others running? (jpnovac, JohnJL) - maybe someone here can provide you his .msq file for reference. You'd have to change the required fuel# in the constants page or transform the VE table to account for the bigger injector size of yours compared to the one the .msq file was tuned for. There is a tool in the VE table menu to do that. Out of curiosity: when you say Quote:
Cheers, Ingo
__________________
1974 Targa 3.6, 2001 C4 (sold), 2019 GT3RS, 2000 ML430 I repair/rebuild Bosch CDI Boxes and Porsche Motronic DMEs Porsche "Hammer" or Porsche PST2, PIWIS III - I can help!! How about a NoBadDays DualChip for 964 or '95 993 |
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10-07-2007, 07:20 AM
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I'll go back to the drawing board today, but I still think as others have mentioned that there is something fundamentally wrong here, either in injector sizing, or something else. I really appreciate all of the time people are spending helping me out on this.
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2021 Model Y 2005 Cayenne Turbo 2012 Panamera 4S 1980 911 SC 1999 996 Cab |
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10-07-2007, 08:01 AM
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1985.5 Porsche 944 2.5L Supercharged 
911 SC
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1984 911 3.2, 1986 911 3.2 coupe, 2007 911 GT3,
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1973 911 RSR Clone
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1960 BMW 700 HotRod
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American La France Lil Mo Fire Engine
Pantera Group 4
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1974 Porsche 911 Targa 3.6
