Dissapointment at the dyno

[ischmitz]

Scott,

Hopefully, someone will respond with some baseline information for fueling your engine. I was under the impression lots of people have done the Megasquirt thing on 3.0 engines. Maybe post a separate thread asking for this.

That info and getting reliable readings off the LC-1 seems to be the key to getting this thing running nice. Keep us posted on findings.

...and once you have mastered the MS-1 it is time to upgrade to MS-II, do your own crank-triggered ignition. That is when things really get crazy.

Ingo

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by ischmitz

Scott,

Hopefully, someone will respond with some baseline information for fueling your engine. I was under the impression lots of people have done the Megasquirt thing on 3.0 engines. Maybe post a separate thread asking for this.

That info and getting reliable readings off the LC-1 seems to be the key to getting this thing running nice. Keep us posted on findings.

...and once you have mastered the MS-1 it is time to upgrade to MS-II, do your own crank-triggered ignition. That is when things really get crazy.

Ingo

I'm trying to source some smaller #19 or #24 lb injectors, but I'm not sure if I want throw more money at the kit. It's like the age old CIS issue of just throwing parts at it.

In looking around the net people use #42 injectors up to 400 HP So I think given my compression ratio and etc that I need to consider going down. I use a Bosch FPR in the mix, it comes with the kit, but it still seems that no matter what try I'm over-fueling.

[ischmitz]

so what happens when you reduce the value for required fuel from its current 11.6ms to something like 9ms while the car idles. Can you hear a difference in idle, can you see a change of displayed A/F ratio?

[jpnovak]

PM me your email and I can send you my .msq file. It is a MSII and you will need to extrapolate from my 12x12 table to your 8x8. The other option is to load the MS&E .ini files and run a 12x12 table in your MSI.

If you look on ebay you should be able to find a set of injectors for about $20. Tuning an engine with the correct parts is not like trying to resurrect a dying CIS system. I would not think you are throwing money at it. FYI, A stock 5.o Mustang will use a 19#. You can find these in the junkyard. You can then raise your fuel pressure to compensate. A nice adjustable and vacuum corrected FPR is a great asset for EFI.

btw, I am using an LC-1 in my setup. It works great even after I coked it up with almost 8:1 when I first got started. Let's just say that cold after-start enrichment and the Warm-up work too well when the numbers are set wrong.

[sjf911]

Are you really running 42lb injectors? I am able to make 230RWHP with 24lb injectors on a very similar build with stable AFRs and a good idle. You might want to consider changing to smaller injectors.

[JohnJL]

I'm not running MS2, I'm running Adaptronic. Here's a screenprint of my map, figures are in miliseconds injector open times, as I said injectors are 26# and ignition is twinplug.




DR20 cams. Around 230-240 at the crank depending on your driveline loss estimate number.

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by sjf911

Are you really running 42lb injectors? I am able to make 230RWHP with 24lb injectors on a very similar build with stable AFRs and a good idle. You might want to consider changing to smaller injectors.

I just double checked, and yes, the software is set for 42lb injectors, and the python part numbers are also listed as 42 lb.

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by JohnJL

I'm not running MS2, I'm running Adaptronic. Here's a screenprint of my map, figures are in miliseconds injector open times, as I said injectors are 26# and ignition is twinplug.




DR20 cams. Around 230-240 at the crank depending on your driveline loss estimate number.

I really like the looks of that software, thanks for posting the pics, I think I'm going to go and find their website.

[mb911]

Scott,

I can tell you this. I run 30lb injectors on my turbo motor which i want to change for 42lb ..I would venture to guess your injectors are too large!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TimT]

42# injectors can support 400 hp at 80% duty cycle.

Something is very wrong if you're maxing injector duty cycle with those injectors. You should be using 18-24# injectors.

[JohnJL]

Software is custom for that ECU so I'm not sure you can load other data into it. It was developed, sold and supported by a local guy, Andy Wyatt.

[mb911]

shoot I will trade you injectors if you like.. I need what you have and mine would work perfect for yours

[TerryBPP]

I would swap out the stock dizzy for an EDIS-6 system for good measure but I'm guessing its a fuel dump issue.

[DW SD]

Originally Posted by mb911

Scott,

I can tell you this. I run 30lb injectors on my turbo motor which i want to change for 42lb ..I would venture to guess your injectors are too large!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why don't you guys trade?
Scott, I'm pulling for you to see this through! I think you'll be happy when you get things sorted out.

Doug

[jpnovak]

Scott, Check your mail. I sent you my msq file.

[Scott R]

OK, lower injectors helped, I scored a set of eight from a 4.6l Mustang for a few pennies. However the floating map is still an issue, Megasquirt moves bins if the map fluctuates even one point. Very annyoing to say the least, surge is still there as well.

I was reading some old posts in the archives and Steve@Rennsport posted that the surging and poor performance can be related to higher compression and larger cams not interacting well with EFI and a short CIS plenum. There is some information on this on mesfi.com as well.

So for the meantime I ordered a complete tested CIS system to put back on for baseline. I was looking at PMO's, but I don't like the lack of a choke living in this climate. I'll install and re-dyno this weekend. I'm not throwing away the EFI system, just need a sanity check for now.

[Wayne 962]

Originally Posted by Scott R

OK, lower injectors helped, I scored a set of eight from a 4.6l Mustang for a few pennies. However the floating map is still an issue, Megasquirt moves bins if the map fluctuates even one point. Very annyoing to say the least, surge is still there as well.

I was reading some old posts in the archives and Steve@Rennsport posted that the surging and poor performance can be related to higher compression and larger cams not interacting well with EFI and a short CIS plenum. There is some information on this on mesfi.com as well.

So for the meantime I ordered a complete tested CIS system to put back on for baseline. I was looking at PMO's, but I don't like the lack of a choke living in this climate. I'll install and re-dyno this weekend. I'm not throwing away the EFI system, just need a sanity check for now.

If you're thinking it might be fuel reversion, as Steve noted, then you will see similar problems with the CIS system. I don't remember, but I don't think you gave the specs on what pistons / heads / cams you were running?

-Wayne

[ischmitz]

Scott,

you might think about dampening the MAP signal adequately by putting a restrictor into the vacuum line. I had to do this on the ITB engine and it made a huge difference. That way the pulses in the manifold are not distorting the MAP signal as much.

Cheers,
Ingo

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

If you're thinking it might be fuel reversion, as Steve noted, then you will see similar problems with the CIS system. I don't remember, but I don't think you gave the specs on what pistons / heads / cams you were running?

-Wayne

@ wayne The pistons are JE's originally 10:5;1 and milled to 9:2:5, the cams are 964 grind by Camgrinder, the heads were rebuilt to spec, nothing special done there.

@ischmitz I actually have two restrictors, one is a paper fuel filter which is something the Megamanual recommends, the second is a 3" long piece of PVC with barb fittings on each end. These helped, however not a solution.

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by Noah

You should not be having an intake reversion problem with 964 cams -- lots and lots and lots of people have used these cams with CIS and MS EFI.

Yes, I've been reading that, lots of success stories. If I could get the system to have a stable map things would be better. I've been looking at other datalogs that have been posted and my MAP seems to be similar to others in that it moves a point or two from time to time, which is fine in the upper bins, however it really kills my idle. I can't stand a moving tach, drives me nuts as you can see.

I really took Wayne's comment to hart, in that maybe I should go back and baseline. If I can prove that the MS system is no worse than CIS, or vice versa I'll then have something to work with. I plan on keeping the LC1 installed to see what AFR's this makes, and depending on what I find, I'll either keep the CIS, or go back to MS.