Reply #?,...from Ryan at Blackstone,..I gotta say that they've been quite "stand-up" on this process. Read below:

Doyle: Sounds good. If you would like to send in another sample
here, we would be glad to run it at no charge. Just write on the
slip that it's NC - per Ryan.

What more could I ask for? Except accurate testing?

So the beat goes on.......I want a damned VOA that reflects what all I've read.......won't stop until I get it (either).

Thanks!

Just an update to my "trek":

Sopke with a gent from sales/Staveley today and he explained it all to me.....I'm gonna' prepey for a 10 sample kit for around $175 (IIRC). I pay the nominal shipping for the test bottles, presently inbound. Reports WILL include a TBN.

...So,..we're off to Staveley for some virgin Royal Purple Max Cycle 20W/50...I need my (confirmed) baseline...


Will post my results,..everybody in the loop has been quite responsive (thus far) , to say the least...beyond my expectations.........

Best,

Rx'd my kit from Staveley's....nice to find they're located right up the Interstate about 100 miles, in Atlanta area.

Staveley will rx' a virgin sample from the same bottle (production lot) as provided to Blackstone. Blackstone will rx' another fresh virgin sample from the SAME bottle for retesting ,..at no charge.

Will post the results this week....gonna get to the bottom of this....

Best,

Well,...rx'd the free retest of the virgin RP Max Cycle sample (another mailed virgin sample from a previously tested (same) bottle.......



Elements PPM RP Max Cycle/VIRGIN 20W50


Aluminum 0
Chromium 0
Iron 0
Copper 0
Lead 0
Tin 0
Molybdenum 300
Nickel 0
Manganese 0
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Potassium 0
Boron 5
Silicon 4
Sodium 2
Calcium 1608
Magnesium 2
Phosphorous 2255
Zinc 745
Barium 0


SUS Viscosity @ 210 deg. F 95.6
CSt Viscosity @ 100 deg C 19.33
Flashpoint in deg. F 390
Fuel % - (yes, it has a "dash",..is this a "zero"?)
Antifreeze % -
Water % 0.0
Insolubles % 0.0
TBN 9.2

Guys,..that's three measurements of three samples from the same bottle, same Lab: (1) the intial virgin sample,...(2) the retest of a sample from the same SAMPLE bottle originally mailed to Blackstone (yes, they said they kept the original bottle and would retest for free....(3) a free retest of a sample from the original quart bottle (mailing #2) and is the most recent post.

Here's their comentary:

JOHNNY: We mentioned in the previous report that we're used to seeing less phosphorus than this in engine oils. This
sample had 2255 ppm of it so Royal Purple must be trying something new. Moly and silicon are also additives. Note
the low flash point again; this is something we might flag as pointing to fuel in the oil, so keep it in mind if/when you use
this oil in your engines. The viscosity was fine for 20W/50 oil. No moisture or insolubles were found. The TBN was 9.2,
compared to 8.6 in the last sample, high for oil intended for use in a gasoline engine.

NOW,..help me out here...Firstly, I thought that the TBN from Porsche was as high as 10.0 (I could be wrong and will read tonight). They state the TBN to be "high for use in a ((((((FRIKIN))))))) gasoline engine".....Secondly ,..WHAT is this reference to "oil intended to be used in gasoline engines"????? WTF? Versus what on my 911? As well, I'm not seeing the recc'd zinc levels at all (closer to 1/2) ..BUT BOATLOADS of phosphorous!!!!!!!!!!

..and finally: the LOW flashpoint...WTF? They speak of it as if it would be indicative of a problem would it have been tested on a 4Kmile sample (GAS IN THE OIL)

We're talking VIRGIN HERE::::i.e., >>>>.that's to say that a virgin sample is starting at way too low a flashpoint at inception? "Keep this in mind", they say::::::::HOW? Please explain, generally.

Keenly awaiting confirmation testing from Staveley. (confirmation testing)....As noted earlier, the manufacturer completely questions the test results (read his replies above)...I've not yet rx'd a reply, having sent him the requested LOT # from the bottle,..he was to spit out what it SHOULD HAVE BEEN.......


....GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZE, can you sense the frustration? I will calmly go with a highly recco'd strategy (provided by Pelicanites here) of using a sample of labs so that one may see (experience) the disparities rendered from the world of "calibrated" instruments............THEN, and only then, one would have confidence in who you're dealing with. I've heeded the experiences of the "notable", informed posters here, within this P-nirvana....Guess I want to "drive" myself through this process. I must arrive at a repeatable selection, for the sake of consistencies of oil selection...I've had her for 1 year now...2 oil changes using the old SL rated Mobile One,.....made discovery on the infamous energy-conserving stars as related to flat-tappets.....all hell breaks loose...( start budgeting cat converters....?) I change to RP, 20W50 street stuff.......later going for RP Max Cycle 20W50 stuff...it's time to change her soon and I DON"T have the data to apply to the next selection.......in fact, what I have is questionable (far as I'm concerned),..THAT IS, MY DATA! Of course, I've Charle's and others to reference,....and theirs' is (equally) unsupportive of the Blackstone results.. BUT,..I MUST SAY,..I'll draw NO conclusion until all the data is in (definately NOT slam Blackstone for errors,..NONONO,..not yet) EVEN with the manufacturer disagreeing, AS WELL!!! Sta

On to Staveley: I've STILL not rx'd my test results from Staveley (do they take that much longer than Blackstone?)

..I'm quite tempted to just get the BP and go with this,..I just hate to draw an early (((in)))conclusive observation on RP Max Cycle, esp. in light of Charle's comments...

...patience is NOT a virtue.

WHATDOYATHINK THUS FAR?

Best (a little patience and a boatload of forbearence)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

As to the introduction, I'm referring to Blackstone LABS..

Best,

Staveley is much slower. The sample from my 911 with 2400 mi on the Brad Penn is going in tomorrow - I'm not expecting results back until probably after Thanksgiving.

Charles,..you carry BP?

Well,..I finally rx'd the results from Staveley on the very same sampled bottle of RP Max Cycle 20W50 that was sent to Blackstone Labs...Charlie N. was dead on.....There's a major difference..............WTF? Why this degree of error? Guess I know where my next sample goes.....comments anyone?

Why didn't Staveley test for flashpoint?
************************************************** ******
Staveley numbers are in BOLD:
Blackstone's are first (non-bolded)


Aluminum 0 2
Chromium 0 0
Iron 0 3
Copper 0 0
Lead 0 0
Tin 0 5
Molybdenum 300 674
Nickel 0 0
Manganese 0 (not measured)
Silver 0 0
Titanium 0 0
Potassium 0 0
Boron 5 0
Silicon 4 5
Sodium 2 7
Calcium 1608 2603
Magnesium 2 13
Phosphorous 2255 3810
Zinc 745 1401
Barium 0 0


SUS Viscosity @ 210 deg. F 95.6 165
CSt Viscosity @ 100 deg C 19.33 20.06
Flashpoint in deg. F 390 (didn't test for this?)
Fuel % - (yes, it has a "dash",..is this a "zero"?) N/A
Antifreeze % - N/A
Water % 0.0 0
Insolubles % 0.0 (didn't measure/ N/A)
TBN 9.2 8.2



Will check this against Charle's site just for confirmation, as well as sending it to Royal Purple.

Damned tempted to send it (Staveley report) to BLACKSTONE to see what they say.

People had best be aware of this differential...acting on bad data is NEVER a good thing.

Best to all,

You have to pay extra for all the other tests at Staveley - they are much more expensive overall, and I guess there is no need to question why. I just have to say that I have had some results spot on with Blackstone, but this is not the norm.

If I may defend (and condemn) Blackstone from personal experience, here's a set of UOAs on my Audi done over the past three years. All but the first are the same oil. I think these UOAs show pretty good consistency.

Yet, when they did a VOA on my Delvac1 sample, it deviated significantly from known values, and they just did a UOA on the same oil which came back with many additives higher than virgin! Maybe my engine gives off Phosphorous. :)

Here are the Audi reports:

http://www.rallystuff.com/images/bla...a_s4_94200.gif

Charles,

Would you itemize the "additional" tests that you refer to? DAMN!! Should of suspected something was missing when I looked at the batch pricing.....NOT apples to apples, I guess.

RallyJon: Blackstone was relatively consistent in their 3 measurements for me (as noted above).....their inconsistency surfaced when checked against another lab source. This concerns me. Especially when you get the response (above) I did from the manufacturer (RP) as to Blackstone's numbers...as Charles, Royal Purple and me suspected: something's just not right here. Staveley has confirmed it, as far as I'm concerned......

Best,

I just order the basic test + the TBN test. I really don't care about the flashpoint test and some of the other missing items from the report.

Thanks Charles.

Just wow! Close to 100% variance in many (most?) elements? WTF? In my mind, that renders the Blackstone results completely useless. Might as well be doing a taste test....seems like you could get just about as close!!

Thank you for the rigor you are applying here. I know it is frustrating, but it is INCREDIBLY valuable information that you and Charles are uncovering here. I am impressed by and thankful for your personal commitment to the pursuit of some reliable consistency here. Stay with it!!

JA

Jandrews:

I must say thanks to Charles for his guidance....he had already "been there"...... I was just plain stubborn and had to "feel" it myself. BTW...a damned good location (where you are)

RUSH!!!! YEAH!@!!!!!!!!!!

Best,

I'm just doing what I can to help :-)

Charles,

On a side note: why would one be indifferent as to flashpoint #s? Need some edumaction on this.....


Best,

How do we know that Staveley's not the one that's wrong (or maybe they are both wrong)? Heck, maybe Charles and Steve W. et al are wrong, and my engine will die early from use of Brad Penn. I'm gonna be pissed years from now if it turn out I should have just stuck with Mobil 1!! :)

Boy am I'm with you! Been a stressful process,

..gotta' go with the guys' (here) experiences......(eh?)

You DO pose a great question,..one that can be repeated with a different lot # oil from RP....

in fact,...I'm at about 3K miles now and ready to change the oil again.. Having TWO LAB'S baselines on the Royal Purple Max Cycle, I think I may send in 2 virgin samples from the incoming lot of RP Max Cycle, to both labs.......get the results,..and post.

As well,..I'll provide 2(each) , +3K samples to BOTH LABS.

This, coupled with my previous diatribes, should reveal another layer of significance...? yep!

OK,.,......let's budget this $$$$$............................................. ...................

...there certainly exists the "truth" of the matter. And THAT's fact.............


Best,

As far knowing the flashpoint, most every 15w40 and 20w50 will have a flash point higher than M1 0W-40, which is pretty low. It's safe to say that Brad Penn, Swepco, and the other aforementioned oils will be more than satisfactory. As far as degredation of flashpoint, well fuel dilution and reduction of TBN will be covered by the standard tests and are more indicative of oil life.

As far as Staveley vs. Blackstone, well if you go by what the manufacturer is stating levels should be at, Staveley hits the mark, where in the past, Blackstone has blown it, as with the above RP samples.