Lubemaster77, having read through the articles you posted, which I had already read at some point somewhere, since it seemed familiar, I find them lacking in substance and evidence to back their statements. Especially so after reading so many SAE papers. But they did have some good points like those made about viscosity retention especially. I do see no difference in a motorcycle oil or car oil as long as they are equal quality and of comparable base stocks. But.. why did they not state the % of viscosity retention for all the oils as well as the UOAs for all the oils. Another point I should mention, those oils tested in Amsoil's motorcycle oil study did about the worst in every test they did, compared to all the other mc oils they tested. Of interest is their statement that newer, SG rated automotive oils are nearly identical to motorcycle oils. Hence, their proported results. We won't have easy access to API SG oils anymore, and many motorcycle oils aren't even SG rated anymore! That's why it's a safe bet to use IMHO a motorcycle oil SG rated in our aircooled cars or similarly robust racing or mixed fleet oils, as it's closest to what would have been in there in the first place and designed to protect our engines for the same reason they claim, that engines from the 70s are much more different than those from the 90s (Porsche didn't catch up to this claim until the 986 and 996 with their modern rendition of a boxer engine).

I don't claim to be a chemical engineer - my wife is one. But I can say that I have read every bit of research I can find on both sides of the fence. Here's a list so far, for those who want some *light* reading:

http://www.google.com/notebook/public/03186853421732795501/BDQS6IwoQt4GviOsi

Whew! Some cashola for all of those!


(still no Staveley's,..yet.)

Best,

Damn! Staveley Lab takes forever!!!!!!!!!! Still no results on my last RP Max Cycle.

Nonetheless, today dumped the RP max Cycle (at 1800 miles) for the Brad Penn 20W50...yep: went from purple to green!! Will dose it at 1000 miles with fuel additive then change her out again, again with B Penn.....probably around 2K miles...THEN: I 'll be on a constant oil selection and an established interval (3Kmiles)........

..done deal......green it is.

BTW: I sent a virgin sample of the BP to Staveley's to set the baseline...will report that, as well...

Done!

Best,



Will update the group with the RP MC analysis once the Lab get's it done....

Doyle,

That sample must have gotten lost in the mail - if not, you need to light a fire under someones a**. :-) They normally take a max of a week and a half, at most. I lost some samples from over the road testing for amsoil v-twin and m1 v-twin when were were doing side by side comparos of oils with uoas in one particular engine. Needless to say, I had no other samples to resend in. I now send everything in with a tracking number, ie. via ups.

I've 3 samples in with them: and RP MC 20W50 w/ ~3K on it,....another RP sample with 1800 on it and a virgin sample of Brad Penn 20W50 (all mailed at different times).....time for a phone call after Christmas holidays. I hope it wasn't lost (by whomever)...THAT would be a real pisser....

...and to think they're <100 miles from me? Geeeeze. Never thought I'd have to resort to UPS and tracking numbers, but so goes certainty.

The BP seems to be doing fine.....it's awful cold out these days,..so I'm looking to the warmer of days to better gauge levels...only yesterday was I able to keep her out for > 1.5 hours to get the aux thermo to fire,..still, the send line was quite cool up front.....still, she saw 196 degrees tops,...running a cool 170-180'sh while on the interstate...(where is spring/summer when you need them?)

I'll report back Wednesday......Hope all are having a great holiday season!

Best,

Well,..rx'd the virgin BP results...(guess that this means they may well have lost the 3K miles RP MC)

Aluminum 2
Chromium 0
Iron 3
Copper 0
Lead 0
Tin 0
Molybdenum 6
Nickel 0
Manganese 0 (not measured)
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Potassium 0
Boron 5
Silicon 11
Sodium 487
Calcium 1918
Magnesium 602
Phosphorous 1294
Zinc 1331
Barium 0

SUS Viscosity @ 210 deg. F 151
CSt Viscosity @ 100 deg C 18.9
Flashpoint in deg. F 390 (didn't test for this?)
Fuel % - 0
Antifreeze % - N/A
Water % 0.0 0
Insolubles % 0.0 (didn't measure/ N/A)
TBN 6.5

What about that TBN, Charlie?

Best,

That TBN is a bit off - it is supposed to be ~10 new, if memory serves me correct. Everything else looks spot on. Might be worth asking for them to recheck it. I've never had staveley test for flashpoint.

TEN ?????? WTF? this is damned near 1/2? This quest for oil selection continues to be a challenge....?.......If it should be ~10,..THEN: it's WAY TF off? No?

I'll request a retest of this TBN parameter of Staveley...we'll see what they do.

On the other hand (and here comes the ((((expensive)))) fun part),.....I'll uncork a fresh bottle of BP 20W50 (racing?) and resend the virgin sample to Staveley's (hell, I've prepaid for 10 samples,...who cares?) I want answers,..correct ones, in fact....


Completely unable to guage temp characteristics during this cold season (somewhat warm, at times, for "down south") for the BP but feel secure in the selection/protection, esp, @ 3K changeout intervals..STILL,..let's see what these labs have to say.....

...and to think that a 3K sample of RP MC 20W50 was lost,...in the mail.....still gotta' call 'em on this one...depends on what "exactly" was lost: the mailed sample or the results..


Patience is not a virtue..

Best,

I'll probably put another 1500 mi on the 911 by the end of Jan and I'll re-sample the Brad Penn and let you know how it is doing. I feel confident that 3000 mi might even be too soon on the Brad Penn, as I think the UOA I sent in was ~7 with 2400mi.

Charles,

I went ahead and resampled a fresh bottle of BP 20W50 and mailed it off today.... to see what's up with the previously measured TBN (dammit,...now that I get a lab to NAIL the spectro and physical, here's come the questionable TBN,..does this end?) Let's see what comes back on take #2 of the virgin BP (same bottle).

They didn't loose the RP MC after all!!! It showed up today in the mail. See below:

ROYAL PURPLE, MAX CYCLE, 20W50 with ~3,600 miles on it::

Aluminum 5
Chromium 0
Iron 14
Copper 8
Lead 4
Tin 6
Molybdenum 511
Nickel 0
Manganese 0 (not measured)
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Potassium 0
Boron 9
Silicon 2
Sodium 7
Calcium 2758
Magnesium 18
Phosphorous 2677
Zinc 1553
Barium 0

SUS Viscosity @ 210 deg. F (states N/A?)WTF?
CSt Viscosity @ 100 deg C 17.34
Flashpoint in deg. F 390 (didn't test for this)
Fuel % - 0
Antifreeze % - N/A
Water % 0.0 0
Insolubles % 0.0 (didn't measure/ N/A)
TBN 3.0

Well Charles,..what do you think of this movement of TBN? Wonder if Staveley's got this TBN wrong, as well?

................WTF?.............................. ...

comments/observations welcomed.

Best,

Increases:

AL +3
Iron +11
Copper +8
Lead +4
Boron +9
Mang +5

depletes (obvious,..all normal, I would assume

cSt visc -2.72

Well?

Best

I'll get around to scanning the results from my previous use of RP Max Cycle for comparison, as well as the VOA I have on the Brad Penn. Hopefully tomorrow. Your UOA for the RP looks excellent nonetheless.

If memory serves me, the starting TBN of RP Max Cycle is about 8, so 3k oil changes is probably spot on with those levels of detergents, if you go buy the recommendation to drain at half of the starting TBN. I'd like to come up with a more analytical way of determining drain intervals, considering fuel dilution, viscosity loss, etc, rather than resorting to TBN alone. I'm reading up on that too. Let's see how much free time I have over the weekend!

SO: the Copper levels are fine at 8? No concern with shearing (as alluded to before:::to watch out for this with Moly??) Guess it's a moot point, as I've now changed over to BP, eh?

Now I just have to figure out whatzup with the starting TBN (from Staveley) on the VOA for the virgin BP.......you mentioned that it seemed low,...let's see what the next (sperate) VOA says
.....

Thanks for your interest and attention.

Best and Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!

Best,

The UOA looked great for the Royal Purple Max Cycle 20w50. I would not be concerned with those copper levels - some of the samples I have seen are in the 50+ for copper, but on fresh engines, which might be ok. I don't know, as I haven't seen enough UOAs to justify those levels, just the warning given by Staveley to monitor those levles.

I have customers who have been running Royal Purple Max Cycle or their Racing oils for years happily, it just costs a bit more and is as difficult to get locally as the Brad Penn :-)

Given the TBN, 3 to 5k intervals with the RP would be appropriate, as the motorcycle oils seem to have lower TBNs than their car oil counterparts.

A bit more? I'd say!

I'll await the second test request of the virgin BP...otherwise, I'll be draining it (the loaded BP)at 3K miles,..planning to dump some Swepco fuel additive just before oil changeout...start my movements from there....I would imagine using the BP, the question now is the TBN on my previously posted data from Staveley's....

...speaking of which...I need to get some BP on order!!!

Best (and thanks!)

Well,..FINALLY rx'd the 2nd pass Brad Penn 20W50 virgin test results. The first numbers posted are the first virgin sample results,..the second numbers are what showed on the 2nd pass (still virgin) rx'd today::::::::::

Aluminum 2 1
Chromium 0 0
Iron 3 2
Copper 0 0
Lead 0 0
Tin 0 0
Molybdenum 6 8
Nickel 0 0
Manganese 0 (not measured)
Silver 0 0
Titanium 0 0
Potassium 0 0
Boron 5 4
Silicon 11 7
Sodium 487 593
Calcium 1918 2090
Magnesium 602 650
Phosphorous 1294 954
Zinc 1331 1131
Barium 0 0

cSt Viscosity @ 40 deg. C 151 151.3
cSt Viscosity @ 100 deg C 18.9 18.9
Flashpoint in deg. F 390 XXXXXX
Fuel % - 0
Antifreeze % - N/A
Water % 0.0 0
Insolubles % 0.0 (didn't measure/ N/A)
TBN 6.5 8.8


Things looke somewhat sonsistent,...Charles? At least the TBN is cose to it's expected area, THIS TIME (don't know what happened with the previous 6.5 TBN...) BOTH of these samples are from the SAME VIRGIN BOTTLE (although at different times).....

Z & P appear a bit down, no?

Comments welcome.

I'm staying put with the Brad Penn,..sampling every oil change and soon to establish the change point. As soon as she empties the present gask tank, laden with Swepco 306 fuel , she'll have about 1000 miles on the oil and we're gonna change it out at that point (understanding that previous oil change to Brad Penn was FROM the RP Max Cycle,..SO,...some of the MC remained in the system...upcoming oil change will further ensure the majority of the car's oil will (the) be (truly) all Brad Penn!!!

Thanks for getting the BP out so quickly, Charles!

My best,

I've had much more consistent results, but from the Chicago Heights lab. It's something worth calling Staveley and pointing out. It's up to the lab manager to make sure they are sending out consistant results.

Lubemaster had suggested another Staveley Lab, also,...I'll check in with him on this.

What do you think (specifically) about the test results, Charles?

Best,

...and, yes,..I will call Staveley's on this,...see how they react and report back.

Best,

The TBN is low but I wouldn't get that wrapped up in it yet - how many miles on that engine? Look at viscosity and wear - those are the main things to worry about.