Is polybronze the way to go? - Page 4

Mysterytrain · 12-20-2007, 02:05 PM

I can feel the love...must be the holidays or this would have been a hoot of a pissing match. I refreshed my suspension this past spring. My 78 is a street car with 16 inch 6's and 7's/SO3's. It got new control arms, for the the rubber and neatrix on the spring plates. Every rubber suspension bushing was replaced with new factory rubber. New Blistien Hd's all around, 21/27 t bars, new F/R bearings, ball joints, Turbo tie rods. I really like the way it feels. Figure I'm good for another 30 years.

Chuck Moreland · 03:07 PM

There's no reason for a pissing match. Rubber and PolyBronze are both good products, they each have different strengths/attributes and the choice depends on what you want from the car. I listed those attributes on page one. I offer both products.

Island's preoccupation with my parts has played out on these pages for 4-5 years. He tries to get attention by tearing my products down. However unintended, this is an homage to the success of the company. He wouldn't bother with an also-ran, there's no glory in that.

KFC911 · 12-20-2007, 02:59 PM

I think Island wants a "Polybronze Iphone" for Christmas

Shaun @ Tru6 · 12-20-2007, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KC911

I think Island wants a "Polybronze Iphone" for Christmas

"Forged Polybronze Iphone"

jonbot · 12-20-2007, 07:25 PM

Thank you everyone for your responses and input. Chuck, are there any plans in the future to develop a "rubber-bronze" type of bushing? Something similar to the poly-bronze, but with rubber instead of polyurethane? Is it even possible to develop? If not, what are the hurtles to overcome?

Chuck Moreland · 12-20-2007, 08:08 PM

Jon, what would be the objective of that change?

island911 · 12-20-2007, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

"Forged Polybronze Iphone"

good one, tho' I think that you meant to say Gravity cast Polybronze iPhone. ...maybe w/ it running a vid of Al Gores "an Inconvenient Truth" ..with the alternate ending where he saves our over heated planet by wrapping each tree with a cool-collar.

island911 · 12-20-2007, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Moreland

...
Island's preoccupation with my parts has played out on these pages for 4-5 years. He tries to get attention by tearing my products down. ....

Sorry Chuck, while I have looked over your bushings with interest, I really haven't looked too hard at any of your other products. Oh wait, those finned lines. Uhmm yeah, not impressed....but I haven't really voiced that until now. So what products of yours have I been tearing down?

RWebb · RWebb's Garage

Please don't answer, Chuck. Isly just needs some attention and it will take the thread further off topic.

jonbot · 12-20-2007, 09:57 PM

Chuck, I'm no engineer, I'm just theorizing. My car's suspension needs to be refreshed sooner than later, so in reality, a more realistic solution to my needs is your re-bushing service. That said, a future product such as a "rubber-bronze" bushing seems like the perfect solution for someone like me that likes to do things himself, and wants to replace his worn out, 30 year old rubber bushings, but is fearful that polyurethane will transfer too much road noise or make the ride too harsh for their taste.

BlueSideUp · 12-20-2007, 10:20 PM

Maybe there is someone local with polybronze that you can ride with. I have always found it best to "ride" a potential suspension before installing it on you car. My last vehicle was too new so I ended up trying out four different suspension setups before finding what I liked.

From what people have said in the past the polybronzes ride pretty nice. I am on the fence right now. I have some polyurethane bushings sitting on the shelf (bought a few years ago) but I may end up going with the polybronze because I'd hate to do it twice.

island911 · 12-20-2007, 10:23 PM

FWIW, oiled rubber bushings are used in various applications. (where the interface between the rubber bush and the center pivot is lubed.) It has good effect/action, but Porsche landed on a solution where most of the deflections (small ones)are simply taken up by the rubber flexing in shear. This works out well as the flexible material can accommodate most all the needed swing. For large deflections the OE bushings are designed to slide. They then slide without the extra smoothness of a greased rubber bushing, but is still plenty smart; as for the really big deflections you don't care if a small bit of energy is taken to drag the bushing. And you also needn't worry about a failure mode of torn rubber.

Oh, be for warned, Chuck has claimed, for years, that the OE bushings are built/designed in a way that does not allow them to slip. Tho' since he is now replacing them, I guess that he must have finally listened to SOMETHING I've said.

...or maybe he's gluing them in place, just to be "right'.

Chuck Moreland · 12-20-2007, 10:30 PM

I understand Jon. In practice those fears are simply not founded.

PolyBronze does not degrade ride quality in any meaningful way. The first three pages of this thread are dominated by posts from guys who actually have the product and testify to the fine ride quality.

This has been the consistent theme with PolyBronze customers - many expect to be trading ride quality for performance, then are pleased and surprised to find the product delivers both.

dd74 · 12-20-2007, 11:06 PM

Island - the proof is in the drive. There are many unnecessary products out there for our 911 cars. However, Chuck's products don't fall into the "unnecessary" category. As to the before mentioned drive, at least the front of my car rides much better than it did after I replaced the plastic bushings with polybronze.

What I'm saying is I just can't find validity in your argument here. Other arguments you've posted about aftermarket parts, yes, I can agree. Just not here. I guess if you want to stretch things out to a cost-to-use ratio, OK, maybe Chuck's stuff can leave something to be desired. But hell, when one drives their car daily - as they should - Chuck's products pay well for themselves.

island911 · 12-20-2007, 11:48 PM

So, dd, you think that those PB's will last as long/longer as the OE? Or are you saying that the ride/performance is so improved . . .wait, you're comparing to plastic bushings?

I don't doubt that the PB transmit less noise than a hard plastic bush or a decades old distorted rubber bushing --where the t-bar is bouncing on metal. ..those are hardly tough acts to follow. Like if someone claimed that they got a flat tire, so they replaced it with a polybronze tire... (note)WOW, What an improvement! (conclude) Rubber tires SUCK. . .just think of all that terrible deflection given up to those wandering old rubber tires.

O well, I suppose this topic is and should be like global warming; consensus, based on skewed data.

KFC911 · 12-21-2007, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonbot

Chuck, I'm no engineer, I'm just theorizing. My car's suspension needs to be refreshed sooner than later, so in reality, a more realistic solution to my needs is your re-bushing service. That said, a future product such as a "rubber-bronze" bushing seems like the perfect solution for someone like me that likes to do things himself, and wants to replace his worn out, 30 year old rubber bushings, but is fearful that polyurethane will transfer too much road noise or make the ride too harsh for their taste.

You really need to check out a "well sorted" car with polybronze as there are a lot of them out around by now. I like to "debate" with Island, but imo he's theorizing too, and the real proof is probably closer to those of us that have them installed and how our cars actually perform and "sound". There simply is no "perception" of harshness or road noise due to the polybronze imo, and that's my story

. Caveat: I'm not one of those who "defends" a product just because I've spent the $, if they weren't "good", I'd be the first to voice displeasure and go in a different direction.

rfuerst911sc · 12-21-2007, 04:17 AM

I have a 1983 SC coupe that was in need of a suspension refurb as the bushings were tired. As you can see from my sig line I did a complete refurb with bushings,shocks,torsion bars,sway bars etc. and part of that was polybronze bushings in the rear and delrin bushings up front. I had my mechanic install all this in Dec. of 2005 so I have 2 years of use as a baseline. The delrin front bushings I actually purchased used as they had come off a race car and had been modified by the owner with "grease grooves " cut into the inside and zerk fitting holes. My mechanic said the front and rear went together easy with good fit and no issues. I also had the car lowered and corner balanced with an alignment. So I started with a brand new baseline. I do 6-8 autocross events a year and 1 DE and this suspension works great. It is compliant ( no stiction in movement ) but firm both on the track and the street. I grease everything once a year and so far so good. My "butt" tells me the front feels a little different than the rear but I really can't describe the difference, maybe a little bit of stiction? If/when the front bushings fail or wear out I will do polybronze as I am very happy with the way the rear has performed and I believe they will last a very long time. I also have a 914 project car and yep I went polybronze front and rear. To me it's a no brainer.

jonbot · 12-21-2007, 02:51 PM

Good tips guys, if there's anyone in the bay area, California that has the PB bushings installed, and would be kind enough to give me a ride sometime, I would really appreciate it!

dd74 · 12-21-2007, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by island911

So, dd, you think that those PB's will last as long/longer as the OE? Or are you saying that the ride/performance is so improved . . .wait, you're comparing to plastic bushings?

When I said plastic, I meant rubber, and yes, I see no reason why they shouldn't last longer than OE rubber. Why wouldn't a metal last longer than a rubber that has to be scraped and torched off the surface it has warped to? Emphasis on "scraped," "torched" and "warped."

Quote:

Originally Posted by island911

I don't doubt that the PB transmit less noise than a hard plastic bush or a decades old distorted rubber bushing --where the t-bar is bouncing on metal. ..those are hardly tough acts to follow. Like if someone claimed that they got a flat tire, so they replaced it with a polybronze tire... (note)WOW, What an improvement! (conclude) Rubber tires SUCK. . .just think of all that terrible deflection given up to those wandering old rubber tires.

In a grave attempt to be pithy (I guess), you lost me here, friend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by island911

O well, I suppose this topic is and should be like global warming; consensus, based on skewed data.

Admit it, you're just jealous of Chuck and Al.

RWebb · RWebb's Garage

"global warming; consensus, based on skewed data"

- Indeed, this sort of sub-scientific gibberish simply diminishes any persuasive ability Island might have had otherwise. Even with hundreds of the top planetary scientists in the world, the best modeling efforts and reams and reams of data from sea-surface buoys to terrestrial fixed stations, from balloons, to thermal satellite data... there are always some fools who, for reasons of their own, will not accept reality.

I suppose he also disbelieves that tobacco smoke cause cancer... anyway, welcome to the Flat-Earth Society, Island. Your opinions not only lack expertise; they lack even common-sense.