How to keep the top front strut nut from spinning?

[Danny_Ocean]

In order to install my new strut-bar, I'm attempting to remove the nut that holds the top of the strut down, but it keeps spinning. I really don't want to disassemble the entire assembly just to get a grip on this nut...

[HarryD]

Danny,

You DO NOT want to capture the stud at the top of the strut. I defeats the purpose of the rubber donut underneath to allow the strut to move as the suspension moves.

Sherwood (911pcars) has a nice modification you can get done by any machinst:



Why?

From Chuck Moreland:

The top of the shock absolutely has to move, by design, as the suspension compresses and rebounds. The normal pivot point is the center of the rubber bushing in the camber plate, that is why it is rubber.

The weltmeister brace attempts to hold the top of the strut and prevent it's movement, effectively creating a second pivot point about an inch or so above the bushing.

Now we have a fight between the rubber bush and the cambermeister, each trying to be the pivot point. Essentially we have a lever arm (the strut) using a fulcrum (the rubber bush) exerting force on the cambermeister mount. This creates a great deal of stress on the strut and mount, resisting normal movement and causing binding. Some cambermeister mounts have fatigued and cracked over time.

Note that even weltmeister recognizes this problem and produces a different product that does not grip the top of the strut. They sell this for use with monoballs, since the regular one would break immediately in a monoball equipped car.

Need advice on strut brace

[Danny_Ocean]

Yeah, that's what I have planned. Still need to get the nut off to remove the large keeper/washer, however.

Originally Posted by HarryD

Danny,

You DO NOT want to capture the stud at the top of the strut. I defeats the purpose of the rubber donut underneath to allow the strut to move as the suspension moves.

Sherwood (911pcars) has a nice modification you can get done by any machinst:



Why?

From Chuck Moreland:

The top of the shock absolutely has to move, by design, as the suspension compresses and rebounds. The normal pivot point is the center of the rubber bushing in the camber plate, that is why it is rubber.

The weltmeister brace attempts to hold the top of the strut and prevent it's movement, effectively creating a second pivot point about an inch or so above the bushing.

Now we have a fight between the rubber bush and the cambermeister, each trying to be the pivot point. Essentially we have a lever arm (the strut) using a fulcrum (the rubber bush) exerting force on the cambermeister mount. This creates a great deal of stress on the strut and mount, resisting normal movement and causing binding. Some cambermeister mounts have fatigued and cracked over time.

Note that even weltmeister recognizes this problem and produces a different product that does not grip the top of the strut. They sell this for use with monoballs, since the regular one would break immediately in a monoball equipped car.

Need advice on strut brace

[rattlsnak]

an Impact gun is the best way...

[Danny_Ocean]

Originally Posted by rattlsnak

an Impact gun is the best way...

OK. I thought about that, but wasn't sure what I might f-up or twist-off downstream.

Thanks.

[HarryD]

Danny,

When you replace the nut, be sure to get the large cupped washers that goes between the strut top rubber and the nut. If you notice, there is a slot in strut stud. The correct washer has an "ear" to fit in that slot to allow you to hold the strut while you tighten/loosen the nut.

[Danny_Ocean]

I have those. The whole thing turns (strut & nut) when I try to loosen with a standard socket/ratchet. It does not appear the cupped washer engages the keyway in the strut.

(Not my car/pic):

Originally Posted by HarryD

Danny,

When you replace the nut, be sure to get the large cupped washers that goes between the strut top rubber and the nut. If you notice, there is a slot in strut stud. The correct washer has an "ear" to fit in that slot to allow you to hold the strut while you tighten/loosen the nut.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Danny_Ocean

I have those. The whole thing turns (strut & nut) when I try to loosen with a standard socket/ratchet. It does not appear the cupped washer engages the keyway in the strut.

(Not my car/pic):

Danny,

When I did my struts, I held the big washer with a pair of channel locks. Worked just fine.

Based on the picture you posted, I assumed you had the Welty Mpunts already in place and they had the ear removed.

[Danny_Ocean]

Originally Posted by HarryD

Based on the picture you posted, I assumed you had the Welty Mpunts already in place and they had the ear removed.

Not my car, not my pic. Just posted for reference as to the large washer/nut.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Danny_Ocean

Not my car, not my pic. Just posted for reference as to the large washer/nut.

OK,

So what does yours look like? If you do not have an impact gun, then you need some way to keep the stud from turning. If you need so help, post a shot of your stud and we can see if we can figure something out.

[rob justice]

Easy mod - us a hacksaw and cut a slot in the top of the strut - just deep enough for a decent size screwdriver. Screwdriver stops the strut from turning - big ring spanner slankens the nut.

[Danny_Ocean]

Mine looks exactly like the photo, sans strut bar. I have an impact gun, but haven't used it without first checking in here.

Originally Posted by HarryD

OK,

So what does yours look like? If you do not have an impact gun, then you need some way to keep the stud from turning. If you need so help, post a shot of your stud and we can see if we can figure something out.

[rattlsnak]

impact gun is the corrert chioce

[Danny_Ocean]

Originally Posted by rattlsnak

impact gun is the correct choice

Great, thanks.

[Eagledriver]

I don't think there is any problem using the Weltmeister bar as is. Yes the rubber bushing flexes when the suspension moves but so what. It flexes in the stock application as well. With the strut brace used as is it locks the top of the strut and keeps it from moving. I use it like a poor mans monoball. In fact I can get more negative camber by pulling the top of the strut in with the brace and crushing the rubber bushing slightly. I agree it's not as elegant as a monoball set-up but it seems to be effective and I haven't noticed any problems with it.

-Andy

[don911]

Originally Posted by Eagledriver

I don't think there is any problem using the Weltmeister bar as is. Yes the rubber bushing flexes when the suspension moves but so what. It flexes in the stock application as well. -Andy

The top of the strut needs to move/pivot with suspension travel. The Weltmeister does not allow the top of the strut to pivot unless the strut hole is enlarged.

[Eagledriver]

The top of the strut can pivot just fine. If it didn't the suspension wouldn't move. It's not ideal because the pivoting is just a bolt through a hole type of pivot (with no backing nut). But pivot it does.

-Andy

[don911]

Originally Posted by Eagledriver

The top of the strut can pivot just fine. If it didn't the suspension wouldn't move. It's not ideal because the pivoting is just a bolt through a hole type of pivot (with no backing nut). But pivot it does.

-Andy

Are you talking about this picture? If so, we'll have to disagree on the top of the strut being able to pivot.

[barney911rs]

Andy Yes the strut needs to pivot where it attaches to the car at the top, but you don't want it to "move" around laterally within the opening. This is what the monoball does for you. The stock rubber mount allows the pivot motion, but also allows lateral movement. The pitch, or the angle of the dangle (what ever you want to call it), of the whole strut assemble changes as the strut moves from full compression to full droop. If this was not the case, you would not use a monoball, but a solid mount to keep it from moving at all.

Danny, you can grab the strut shaft by hand in the wheel well to keep it from spinning if the impact gun by itself does not loosen it. Or you can also use channel grips and a rag to hold it steady. You need to hold the piston part of the strut insert, not the strut itself.

[Walt Fricke]

I like the suggestion of cutting a small screwdriver slot in the top of the shock/strut insert. Won't work for shocks that adjust through the top, though.

Another method involves taking a spare cup washer, with a good tang in it (or making something which has the same function), putting it over the protruding threaded top of the shock, holding it with something suitable (vice grips, channel locks, weld something onto it to make a real tool), and using an open end wrench (or a box you put on first) to turn the nut enough to get things moving. By the time you have turned the nut enough to force your holder off the top of the threads, you should have moved the nut up far enough that you can get it off the rest of the way without any heroic measures.

That is, if you haven't gotten the job done with the impact gun.

As to the Weltmeister's design, I come down squarely in the middle.

Yes, it seems an odd design. A threaded bolt through a thin round hole is not the way one would design a pivot, especially not one that moves all the time (even if not much).

However, I bought one of these as soon as they came out (in fact, they upgraded it soon after, and sent me the upgrade piece - which attached on both sides and not just one - gratis). I ran it for at least ten years before finally going to a spherical bearing setup. I did no damage to the top bits of the shock in all that while - nothing broke, no metal fatigued in the shock or the Weltmeister or the surrounding shock tower sheet metal, etc. So the stock rubber mount must be soft enough that it can handle the different movement forced upon it by the Weltmeister.

Of course, when finally I installed a spherical bearing, I cut out the center of my trusty Weltmeister with a hole saw so as not to interfere with the spheircal setup - which really would have put things in a hell of a bind and probably have broken off the top bits of the shock.

Oh - I put off going spherical because of fears of finally pushing the ride over the top for the street. Fears were entirely unjustified in a car with big torsion bars - never noticed a thing.

Walt Fricke