72-73 Max power/$ no object

First, thanks to all of the folks with the information on making a VW Bus into a Porsche Bus! Roland's advice was most illuminating as it referred to some 'factory' Porsche powered Buses.

( BTW, here's a 2.7 powered VW Bus on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=573301248&r=0&t=0 )

My focus has shifted to creating a super 'sleeper' 911 after an experience I had today on the 101 here in Solana Beach today.

I have a fresh hot rod 2.7 in a lightweight '72T (2300 lb) and I ran pretty well with a wild sounding signal orange 993 'turbo' something today.

The car was the brightest flourescent orange I have ever seen on a Porsche . . . and it had a tail that was about even with the roof. This was not a boy racer 911, but appeared and sounded like a professionally built racer.

At a stop light at Lomas Sante Fe Rd. and the 101, I gave him the "thumbs up" and told him his car looked and sounded great. He said "What year is that?" and I told him it was a '72 with a hot rod 2.7. He then said that he thought so because my car was a 'little' faster than he expected. 8-] I think it was 'a lot' faster than he expected . . .

I'm running a 7R 2.7 that has been shuffle pinned and timeserted, Weber 40MM with '66 Solex grind cams, ported and polished intake and exhaust, forged pistons and Nikasil cylinders, Electromotive ignition, SSIs and a Dansk stainless OEM style exhaust (single outlet). No dyno figures yet, but I am assuming (hoping?) I am getting around 200hp to the rear wheels.

I have the 915 7:31 and get plenty of pull from the launch . . . and have the 29:21 5th gear that should be good for 150mph at redline.

My question is borne from my experience today; my present car is plenty fast for my daily driver, but I would like to build a super sleeper - to 'really' give the modern 911 variants (and turbos) a run. My 0-60 casual run with the wild orange turbo racer today was fun, but he would probably have smoked me in a true drag/track dual.

I may have the same 'fever' that has taken Mr. Olsen!

Here are the parameters for the project:

1) Totally stock outward appearance of a '72 911S - solid, rust free shell.

2) As much streetable horsepower as will fit in a non-tailed '72 body.

My thoughts lead me to the latest air-cooled 911 motor with the help of a supercharger and a modern G50 or GT type tranny . . . and a 935 style suspension that would hide behind stock wheels and tires. I think '78 style '917' brakes work with 15" wheels . . .

Of course the 15X6 wheels at all four corners are not the perfect choice for AX or track events, but the goal is a streetable sleeper . . . badged as a "T"

I have ruled out turbos because of the probable need of an intercooler/tail . . . and I think that a 'normally' aspirated motor will not make the horsepower needed for this 911.

Keeping the above in mind, what is the best solution if money is no object?

Best Regards,

Kurt

Uh, that would be my car ( )... with the 3.6 rebuilt to accommodate a supercharger and intercooler underneath -- is this cheating? -- a ducktail. The trick with fitting under a stock lid isn't just finding enough room, it's also about getting enough air back there to keep things cool enough.

If the ducktail is off limits, you could consider the 3.8 piston and cylinder conversion. With better cams, headers, intake and a chip, you could get pretty far north of 300 hp, I'd guess.

Then you go with a G50 and the Patrick short bellhousing in back (or a regular G50 and coil-overs in back).

I think (obviously, since I've done it) that 16-inch wheels and SC flares don't give away too much, and they give you a lot better plant with all that additional weight in back.

As I understand it, with enough money, 350-400 hp or so is manageable (although how streetable that would be I don't know).

Heck, the Turbo Performance Center claims 350 hp with their supercharger on a 3.6 with no mods to the inside of the engine (sounds dangerous to me, but -- as I've mentioned before -- Bruce Anderson himself has written to me to say their setup looks good to him), and the TPC supercharger is only around $6,000.

Jeez, you've got me thinking about it again...

I've got to get back to work.

------------------
Jack Olsen
1973 911 T (3.6) sunroof coupe
jackolsen@mediaone.net

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 03-25-2001).]

Jack:

As you know, I have 'Porsche envy'.

Your car is magnificent, but I want a true stock look - no cheating!

Yes, I will trade-off a lot in regards to all around handling, but such is the life of a sleeper . . .

I find your car beautiful and somewhat intimidating if I were to meet you at a stoplight.

My goal is the ultimate wolf in sheep's clothing . . . I would have to live with the compromises associated with mating the power to a stock appearance.

Best to you,

Kurt


[This message has been edited by kurtstarnes (edited 03-25-2001).]

[This message has been edited by kurtstarnes (edited 03-25-2001).]

Kurt,

If you start with a 3.2 or 3.3 bottom end, Andial or Jerry Woods can get you 3.5 liters with 'custom' Mahles, 325 to 340 hp neighborhood, normally aspirated with 46IDA Webers and GE-80 cams ... he (Jerry W.) does some gorgeous 1-3/4" header systems that would bolt right up to a stock muffler!

And, Bob Norwood in Dallas does some magic with high-revving non-boosted engines, too! To the 9-10,000 rpm neighborhood, I should mention!

------------------
Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

The wall you'll hit (I hope figuratively and not literally) is that with the smaller tires and the lack of lift-reducing devices (front or rear spoilers), you're going to have a hard time keeping the tail behind you in the twisties, and an equally hard time keeping it pointed in a straight line at triple digit speeds.

It's a fun idea, though. I'd say (to chime in with Warren) 3.8 liters of Andial-tweaked normally-aspirated power, along with early Turbo brakes.

Sort of a 911R with a monstrous amount of power in it. If the driver is up to the task, it couldn't be too bad...

------------------
Jack Olsen
1973 911 T (3.6) sunroof coupe
jackolsen@mediaone.net

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 03-26-2001).]

And by the way, Kurt, if you've got that 2.7 in the black 72 coupe you had for sale briefly on eBay, and it's putting out anywhere near 200 hp at the wheels, then you've got no reason to envy Black Beauty. That's a fantastic (and great looking) combination. If you have 230 hp at the crank, and 2300 pounds, then I'd say you're on par with my 260 and 2500 pounds. Even though my power-to-weight ratio might nudge you out by a fraction (and, then again, might not), your car is lighter, which I think means more on a track when the other factors are so close.

I think you'd give me a real run for my money at a track like Streets of Willow or even Buttonwillow. I might be able to take advantage of the power and torque I've got at Willow Springs. But then again, you might leave me in your wake there, too.

But in Los Angeles, you've got to pick your battles carefully. Like Miami (and I'm sure parts of Texas, and New York, and other spots), there are guys around here with a lot of money to put into their cars. Guys who bring 996TTs and Modenas to Drivers Ed events. Guys who go to places like Andial, and just set up a wire to the central bank, or whatever, and let the mechanics go to town on the car. (Around here, there are guys with stereos that cost more than my car.)

I had a couple of kids pull up next to me, the other day, in a 993 Twin Turbo. Now, they didn't know anything about my car -- to them it was just a kind of quaint, vintage-looking Porsche. But they didn't care. They were crazy to race me, in spite of the fact that to anyone looking at the situation, it was sort of like a rocket racing a bicycle. The Turbo was tweaked - different exhaust, some body kit stuff. Maybe it was all 'PVC roll-bar' and no real muscle, or maybe it wasn't. But there's so much money out here that it could have been a 650-hp weekend car that these kids got their dad to spring for from Gemballa on a lark.

What's my point? Well, I guess I'm probably trying to convince myself of something, rather than you. But I'll continue. With my car, the real revelation came for me on the third or fourth time I took it out on a track with the new engine. I realized that the real fun of this thing is working to match my own capabilities to it. I have no doubt that any of the better drivers at most of the events I go to could kick my butt in the older, 2.2 liter version of my car. It's not that the improvements haven't been substantial, or worthwhile, it's that my own path, as a driver, is going to go a lot slower than the changes that my checkbook can bring about. I would wager that I'm still not good enough to really match the capabilities of the 125 hp version of my car that I brought home less than a year ago. Slowly, steadily, though, I hope to catch up to my car in the capability department.

And that is the thing that the kid in the Ferrari next to me -- no matter how much his oil tycoon father might have forked over to some performance shop -- is almost certainly not going to be able to keep up with. Or rather, maybe he can, and we'll have a blast chasing each other out at Buttonwillow. But with regard to the streetlight and boulevard competitions, well, I realized that that's not why I do it. To me, it's an inner thing, where you learn about yourself, not an outer thing where you punk some stranger in a Mitsubishi. The inner stuff requires concentration, and a certain sense of safety that comes with a carefully controlled setting... a track.

There. I found a point in it all. I want to grow as a driver more than I want to humiliate strangers on public roads. I want to find the limits of the car's handling, and my ability to handle it, more than I want to find out if the Porsche machine I bought can launch faster than the Ford machine some teenager in a Mustang bought.

That said, I think the whole tribe of early 911 owners deserves a giant-killing stealth monster to cheer for in street races. You could even badge it as a 912.

And, of course, I'd still like to see what 350 hp feels like in Black Beauty, eventually.

------------------
Jack Olsen
1973 911 T (3.6) sunroof coupe
jackolsen@mediaone.net

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 03-26-2001).]

If you just wanna drag race, why dont you fit a Nitros Oxide kit?

Of course its still gonna be tricky keeping the power down with stock wheels. Even when you are rolling.

Still, it would be bloody good fun.

Alex.

------------------
911 2.7S Targa
email:alex@cascade.f9.co.uk

Money no object? You need a 3.6 engine. Tear it down and do the 3.8 conversion with all the bells and whistles (carillo rods, ti valves, racing springs blah blah blah). Set up the compression for a supercharger, buy a supercharger. And finally, hook up some 100 - 150 shot nitrous and make the engine case is strong enough for this.

You're looking at the $20K and up price range and you probably will have trouble doing it yourself so look at even more if you want to take it to a reputable mechanic. Neat project though, and you're going to have a hard time with no tail, flares or tires.

Adam Roseneck


------------------
1978 911SC 3.0
roseneck@cyberbeach.net

Kurt,

You have the makings of a well-balanced street/track car right now with a nice 2.7 in a narrow bodied early car. You can continue to refine the suspension to suit your driving style and be almost as quick as any Porsche out there. When you start adding lots of power (and weight) in the back, you will have to upgrade your suspension and brakes to cope, adding more unsprung weight, (even if you choose to limit your rear rubber to 225s on 7x15 911R wheels) and your car will not be as streetable or as balanced as it is right now.

Randy W

Here is the car I was speaking of in my original post (made brief run with it on the coastal route in Solana Beach):



Check out more pics here, and also check out the interior:
http://www.nosubstitute.org/events/SdAutox25Mar01/

Thanks for everyone's response!

Best Regards,

Kurt

I looked at the other pictures of the car on the PCA/San Diego site.

That's certainly an eye-catching car. It's puzzling that you would do the 993 body kit, and even put on the turbo badging and the turbo license plate frame, but then not update the clearly-I'm-an-SC blue California license plate.

And does that button on the interior really say "front machine gun?"

If that's a fiberglass kit, and he's got a 993 Turbo powertrain in there, then I'm sure it's a very quick car.

------------------
Jack Olsen
1973 911 T (3.6) sunroof coupe
jackolsen@mediaone.net

Hello

Buy an 77-88 930. Strip car and change to 73 RS look. Rebuild the engine to 3,0 SC/ RS with MFI and add some other good stuff like RS trany. Base wight is around 1000 kg and you have 330 HP ( with Roitmayer set up ). If you go to standard SC look then you have 1050 kg base wight.

The car is easier to handle then a turbo and the MFI is instant on demand power, lots of grunt, while carbs have trouble to bring it in or EFI has to the ECU to shoot in some more fuel.

9" with 225 has enough traction but is also easy to handle and catch back in. Topspeed is depending on gearing but a 300 HP Ruf BTR manages 180 mph, so you will be pretty close to that.

Not to forget the sound generatet from 6 butterflies will scare most from the road.

BTW if you think you read something about such a car; the factory made 22 of them in 1984 ( Type 954 ) but with turbo body.

Grüsse

Hi Roland,
What is "Roitmayer set up"?


Mark


------------------
Mark B. Wilson
1970 911E
mbwilson@home.com
http://www.marksobsessions.20m.com/

http://www.nosubstitute.org/events/SdAutox25Mar01/DSCN0047.jpg

I saw that car as well at the San Diego Autocross...wanted to see it run. Too bad it did not. And yes it did have a sign on the switch that said "front machine gun"....

Here are the rest of the AX pics if interested... http://www.nosubstitute.org/events/SdAutox25Mar01/

I am pretty sure that orange beast from SD has a 70's 930 drivetrain -- I heard the guy say it has the 930 4 speed trans also. Definitely had the finned 930/917 brakes too.

Personally, the 3.0 RS/RSR high-comp MFI or slide-valve injection setup, electronic dual plug ignition would be my choice of poison. (I would love to have one of those in a 914/6GT clone ) I was very fond of this engine, at least gawking at it in the parking lot at the Dunkels meet:



It is a 2.8 RSR setup with 7R case, 9.8:1 C/R, twin plugged, electromotive ignition, slide valve injection, headers, megaphones, and most likely some serious cajones.

Chris C.
70 911E Targa (engine fresh but mostly stock, 165bhp on a good day)
73 914 2.0 (bone stock and well-used, 95bhp in 1973, today who knows!)

Terminal power-envy is definitely setting in...why'd you guys have to start this thread!




[This message has been edited by campbellcj (edited 03-26-2001).]

Originally posted by JackOlsen:

Sort of a 911R with a monstrous amount of power in it. If the driver is up to the task, it couldn't be too bad...

That is so definitely my plan, one day when I am rich and famous. Except I would probably go 16" wheels too. 16x7s at that, but still only 205's. 1972 to get the exterior oil fill pipe, go shopping at GT Racing for bumpers etc. But not on an early early body - I like wheelbase.

Either that or Kurt's plan with a "912" rear emblem.....

Cam

Hello

Roitmayer is a small Porsche tuner in germany, very close to munich.

Basically Roitmayer investet many into making those 2,8 RSR reliable ending with an streetable 3,0. Roitmayer deletet those sticking and high idle requiering slider plates by a new high point butterfly setup. This generates a very tourqie engine but still has the wild cam´s for a rushing topend.
Internaly those engines are tricked out and turn up to 8000/min. You can say it will have 100 HP per 1L in streetable version but you can go up to 115 HP/L on the racetrack. But low end tourque is then missing for those 11 sec runs. And for FIA conform racing you have to use the sliders again.

Roitmayer is not in the net. One familymember ( nephue, son ? ) is driving in the Porsche Cup and maybe you will meet him in the US.

Grüsse


http://www.victory-team-berlin.de/porsche911rsr.htm http://www.niederhof.com/termine.htm

If I had it to do over and had not bought a a 1971 911 that already had an 1983 SC motor and tranny installed.


Again if I were to start fresh, 3.6 long block, add 50mm PMO's, 10:1 J-E pistons, Web Grind cams, crank fire spark, one of these days SSI is going to have out their new and bigger version of heat exchangers, and let it go at that.

Light car, small tires, lets be real here none of us are AJ Foyt, and this is just a great way to kill yourself. Yea you can add Nitrous or some form of abnormal asperation but will you ever need or use it, hell no. Drop the hammer on these hot rods like Jack's or mine, as they are, and you can bust the ass end lose from here to Seattle and back. On the other hand if your like me and are just building a "Hot Rod" toy, then go for it. How many street rods do you see with blowers and big slicks that are just for show, sure they go but how often.

Randy Jones
1971 911

Randy, I think you're right on the money. Here's a picture of an engine built by William Knight (of the race shop KnightRace) in Kentucky.



It's a 3.6, built on a 3.2 case, with a 964 crank, 964 oil pump, 50mm PMOs, 11.5 to 1 compression, and a lot of custom machine work on all the other pieces. Its biggest virtue is a very flat torque curve: from 3850 rpm to 7800 rpm it never falls below 285 lbs, and the peak is around 315 lbs. Peak power is 370 hp. (Click on the thumbnail for a bigger picture.)

And it all fits under the stock decklid.


------------------
Jack Olsen
1973 911 T (3.6) sunroof coupe
jackolsen@mediaone.net

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 03-27-2001).]

Randy and Jack:

Both of you are right on.

Don't know if you saw Steve Weiner's reply on the Rennlist mailing, but he recommended a very similar motor, albeit a bit milder.

Here is what he said regarding the motor:

"96-98 3.6 litre engine (biggest valves)
50mm PMO's
Either retain the DME for ignition or replace with a pair of MSD's and have the stock distributor reworked to suit.
GE-60 cams or equivalent
Aftermarket racing valve springs and titanium retainers
Pauter Engineering rods
I would add a left side fender-mounted oil cooler!"

I hope he doesn't mind me reposting his motor comments here, but I will take the liberty since he posted it to the Rennlist publically!

He said that 330+hp was possible with almost 300 lb-ft of torque . . . that would be 'fun' . . . moving 2300+ pounds of German steel.

I have already been combing the Rennlist classifieds for a nice 3.6 and found a few candidates. I may try to sell my present motor and tranny and just take the plunge.

The 'mystery' of my Motormeister rebuild is just not very settling with me. If I ignore the smoking at start-up and the persistent cam cover oil leaks, the motor is very strong, so MM deserves some level of credit . . . but I am still not quite sure what I have! LOL! The rebuilt tranny grinds a bit as well when it shouldn't.

Anybody worked with Steve and Rennsport Systems before?

Take care fellows and happy motoring!

Best,

Kurt