Seafoam into a 3.2 intake? - Page 3

84porsche9113.2 · 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jurhip

Please do NOT add this to your oil. I cannot express that enough. Look at the other posts. It is basically light hydrocarbons. It will thin your oil and completely change its viscosity make-up. you wouldn't put gasoline in their would you? NEVER EVER EVER add solvent to your oil.
You really think SeaFoam is going to stand by your higher wear rates because of its use.

Sorry for being blunt, but that is a very dumb thing to do.
Now, I am sure I will here from ton's of people and rodder's that have done this without engine failure, and I believe them, but wear rates in bearings will rise and eventually clearances will grow or worse. Plus, i rarely hear of hot rodder's and stuff going for street car reliability. As an engineer and enthusiast in this industry - this goes against everything commons sense and proven. I beg you not to do this (or ever do it again)

okay, i think we all can take your word for it that it might not be good for the oil. but does it do the job advertised of cleaning the carbon? do you know?

if it was effective at clean the carbon, what if someone did the treatment right before changing the oil?

would that alleviate your concerns? this way the carbon would be cleaned and the product removed (along with the old oil)....

by the way, they do make a gunk product (solvent) for adding to the oil right before you change the oil that is supposed to clean things up a bit(you are supposed to add it to the oil and run the engine for a few minuites before draining it). Wouldn't using seafom in the manner described above to clean the carbon 1st, and then changing he oil, be similar to adding a solvent to clean things up a bit right before an oil change? Would you advise against using a solvet type product right before changing the oil for similar reasons?

also, this is just out of curiosity, but my question is when the product is added in the intake, does anyone know how much of this stuff is burned up as smoke (as we all see with the smoking exhuast action), and how much actually goes into the oil? Like does 50% get burned up and 50% stay in the oil? How much of this stuff actually get past the piston rings into the oil? I am just curious because I don't really know myself.... Because it creates a lot of smoke I'm guessing that at least "some" of it is being burned up. How much, i dont really know...

JFairman · 03-17-2008, 06:27 PM

Oil flush solvents are for domestic cars with hydraulic lifters that never got oil changes and are full of oil/carbon sludge so those lifters don't pump up anymore.
If you are still obsessed with the idea of putting solvent in your oil, remember that around 2 quarts of oil stay in the oil line and cooler circut, and in low lying areas in the engine so some of it will still be in there to dilute the fresh oil.

Motor oil has detergents in it to keep dirt in suspension so changing it at the correct intervals is all you should do.

84porsche9113.2 · 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFairman

If you are still obsessed with the idea of putting solvent in your oil, remember that around 2 quarts of oil stay in the oil line and cooler circut, and in low lying areas in the engine so some of it will still be in there to dilute the fresh oil.

I am not obsessed. I ask the question because I've done it before. Also, actually my question was in part more related to seafoam for general use (as in most domestic and import cars) since I have used it in all the vehicles I own. On the porsche I do know that there are a lot of lines and places where you can't completely flush out all the oil, because I have taken my engine and the trans apart and I can see/imagine where the oil still reimains even after you remove the 2 drain plugs and the S hose. Plus you are talking a ratio of seafoam to 12 quarts of oil which is much more oil in in air cooled vehicle than on a domestic or import water-cooled one. So my guess is what does remain would be a relatively low percentage of the oil, especialy when combined with 10 quarts of new oil.

Regarding porsches specifically, my point about the oil flush solvent was not that I intended to use seafoam as a motor flush in the porsche (my intention of using it in the intake of the porsche was to atempt to clean out any carbon that was there, not because I wanted to clean any supposed non-existent hydraulic lifters), but rather, the main point of that analogy was that if used in the manner a flush is used RIGHT before an oil change, the solvent would be mostly removed from the cranckase so the harm if any, should be minmized.

I also think it is a cost/benefit type analysis where it depends if you have carbon in your engine and is it worth it to you to have a little of the solvent stuff in there so you can clean out some of the carbon...

i think the relevant question is how effective is it at removing carbon when sucked in through the intake and is the little amount that is left after doing an oil change worth it to remove the carbon? Obviuosly if the answer is that it does a poor or bad job of removing carbon AND it screws up the oil viscosity, then most likely it is not worth it. But again, that's why I also asked if anyone knows how good a job it does of removing the carbon? With all the smoke, it seems like it is doing something...

whehter the treatment is worth it or not seems to be a question only each person can answer for themselves because every one has different things that are important to them (and differeing opinions on whehther it is of any benefit or not, it seems)...

84porsche9113.2 · 10:15 AM

because no one could really answer my question and some people were claiming that there was harm adding the stuff, i went straight to the horses mouth and contacted seafoam directly.

according to them, adding 1 1/2 ounces per quart of oil (directly in the crankcase), has NO effect on oil viscocity. Half the container is 8 ounces. So you can easily add 1/2 the can to roughly a little more than 5 quarts and not affect oil viscocity according to them.

just wanted to put that out there (the other side of the coin) since some people seemed to take a hard line stance that it is harmful to viscocity.

I have no affiliation with the product but I AM interested in finding out the truth and NOT interested in hype. I don't know who to believe at this point but the fact that the mfg claims small amounts will not harm viscocity is enough to give me some peace of mind...

JFairman · 03-18-2008, 10:25 AM

it's reading stuff like this and other posts from others that once again confirm to me, NEVER buy a car thats been worked on and maintained by the unexperienced beginner mechanic owner. . . ONLY buy one thats been worked on and maintained by a professional mechanic.

you have to have the maintenance receipts before spending that kind of money on an expensive engine, etc. as a porsche. if the owner did his own work, learning along the way ... you just don't know what you're gonna get.

i know you won't like my post, but you won't listen to people that know more than you either.

that said, have a wonderful day and do what you want, it's your car

dshepp806 · dshepp806's Garage

I keep my carbon burned off through frequent spirited drives!

Not sure about running this stuff through or not (I certainly have never done so). As mentioned,..lotsa space for oil to stay. If for some dreaded reason I would run this stuff through, you'd be damned sure that I would taking lotsa pieces apart, ensuring there was complete bleeding off this additive,...and that would be a bit of work.. For now, she gets frequent oil changes and high speeds (no track stuff)...Never, ever for short trips under ANY circumstances,..always long runs of an hour or better...avoid, as much as possible, all the things operationally that would contribute to carbon buildup. Good old BP and stock filter, every 3K. Luckily I don't have a problem that would warrant using the additive. I surely wouldn't just add it preventatively...that's just me but it's good to hear these various opinions,..more importantly, everybody sharing....

keep 'em coming.....

Best,

Good to hear the mechanic side...hopefully some of the masters here will chime (further) in....

So, it's only for hydraulic lifters?

84porsche9113.2 · 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFairman

NEVER buy a car thats been worked on and maintained by the unexperienced beginner mechanic owner. . . ONLY buy one thats been worked on and maintained by a professional mechanic.

you have to have the maintenance receipts before spending that kind of money on an expensive engine, etc. as a porsche. if the owner did his own work, learning along the way ... you just don't know what you're gonna get.

OMG Mr. JFairman, what an intelligent comment and an intelligent person you are! You just bashed about 90% of the people reading this board, and at the same time recommended that no one buy a car from any of them! Since when does a majority of people reading a DIY board like this one pay mechanics to do ALL the work on their cars and keep the receipts?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the WHOLE PURPOSE of a DIY board like this one, is in large part, to help people who are NOT professional mechanics work on porsches in an economical way so they DON'T have to pay a professional mechanic to do the work.

I mean, come on, that's the whole way this entire board and website (in my humble opinion) is set up -- to sell parts to DIY'ers who have a project porsche they love to work on, but they are not necessarily trained "professional mechanics" themselves. Likewise, this BBS as well as the technical articles, do not appear to be primarily written by, or even targeted at "professional porsche mechanics" at all. In fact, it appears to be completely the opposite - they seem to be intended at primarily the DIY'er like myself and a large majority of eveyone else reading this BBS.

Also, I'm sure Wayne's books, "101 Projects for your Porsche" or "How to Rebuild and Modify a Porsche Engine" (both of which I own, by the way) were intended primarily for the "professional porsche mechanic", or ONLY the most "experienced mechanic owners" right? lol. Since when did this board become so prejudicial and hating of anyone just because they want to come here to learn?

I think you COMPLETELY MISS the point and spirit of this board as well as the reason why people come here to obtain tech tips and hints to help them do the work WITHOUT PAYING through their nose for a "professional mechanic" as you would put it.

People come here exactly BECAUSE they are not "professional" porsche mechanics, to learn and to share ideas and to become educated about the cars their own. Why do you see anything wrong with that as well as people discussing, asking questions, or trying to learn things that are of interest to them, even though they are NOT professional mechanics, but STILL want to work on their own cars?

Why not just make this board "excluslive and members only" so only "qualified home mechanics" can read it then?? I'm sure Wayne wouldn't like that, his business would probably drop considerably. If you are going to be open to the public then the members should be accomdating of discussion that the public has. If you want to be closed off to your own little "exclusive/experienced" community, then why is this board open to the public?

Besides, I think it is all relative. I'm sure the truly "professional/certified porsche mechanic" would look down on the "experienced home mechanic" or even the "expereinced, professional, non-porsche certified mechanic" who had no certification, just because he is not "certified" by porsche. And the "certified" porsche mechanic would also probably say something along the lines of -- don't by a car that was not worked on by a "CERTIFIED" porsche mechanic. And I'm sure 90% of this board is not "certified" by porsche or they wouldn't be here trying to discuss and learn stuff.

I'm glad you know so much more than me, in addition to knowing so much "about me" (that i'm a supposedly unexperienced beginner), but you are certainly entitled to your own opinions, sir....

defcon65 · 03-18-2008, 01:28 PM

I decided I'm going to try this on the Honda first to gauge just how much smoke it produces, where the prevailing winds will carry it and how many neighbors I can alienate at once with my backyard smokescreen.
I will add it to the manifold but not the oil. I agree that solvent in the crankcase is probably undesirable.
Hope this works! I have had luck using 'stop leak' in a can to get rid of minor oil leaks in the Honda.

84porsche9113.2 · 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by defcon65

I decided I'm going to try this on the Honda first to gauge just how much smoke it produces, where the prevailing winds will carry it and how many neighbors I can alienate at once with my backyard smokescreen.
I will add it to the manifold but not the oil. I agree that solvent in the crankcase is probably undesirable.

I hope no one mis-interpreted me. I myself have NEVER intentionally put the stuff directly into the oil. I have always used it to clean carbon by adding in through the vacuum in the mainfiold. I also agree it would probably not do much good in the oil unless you were trying to use it like a solvent before an oil change on an water-cooled car.

However, my purpose on wondering whether it could adversely affect the oil is that I wondered if that somehow even if you add it only in the manifold, could some of it get past the piston rings and end up in the oil?

This is why I mentioned/posted that I contacted seafoam and they claim that up to 1 1/2 oz in the oil per quart should still be okay and not affect viscosity at all, but my real purpose in asking was ONLY IN THE EVENT that somehow it is still getting in my oil EVEN if I didn't pour it direclty in there and I put it ONLY in the mainfold... It's also the only reason I suggested changing the oil after the treatment as a possible solution/remedy, if anyone was concerned about the product adversely affecting the oil when used only as a carbon cleaner in the intake.

BTW, I once did one of my cars at night and I think it's much less visible when people are sleeping or compared to in the day if you want to be less obvious...(provided you have an good/effective muffler on the vehicle, anyway) haha. Plus I live sort of higher up on a mountain and if anyone drove through that thick, dense cloud of smoke, they probably thought it was some kind of fog. lol. seafoam must sure piss off the environmentalists...

Roger 911 · Roger 911's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFairman

it's reading stuff like this and other posts from others that once again confirm to me, NEVER buy a car thats been worked on and maintained by the unexperienced beginner mechanic owner. . . ONLY buy one thats been worked on and maintained by a professional mechanic.

you have to have the maintenance receipts before spending that kind of money on an expensive engine, etc. as a porsche. if the owner did his own work, learning along the way ... you just don't know what you're gonna get.

i know you won't like my post, but you won't listen to people that know more than you either.

that said, have a wonderful day and do what you want, it's your car

I have always felt that you can break "car guys" into two groups; those that are good at opening their toolbox and those that are good at opening their wallet. It's important to know which group you fall into. As a side note, many who fall into the former can make a decent living off those who fall into the latter.

jurhip · 03-19-2008, 10:27 AM

Seafoam and the like do not provide viscosity tests with their product. You have no idea to what extent this will affect viscosity.

Bearings, journal and roller alike, all ride on a very very thin film of oil. Localized flashing of the oil at the bearing load points causes damage. You want oil to remove heat and maintain this protective film. Compromised oil cannot perform this function at a microscopic level. yeah, your engien probably won't seize. But it is poor maintenance practice. A cheap solution to a real problem.

If you really have deposits that affect performance. That the part off, dissemble and then use whatever material compatible solvent you want. Clean residue, reassemble and be happy with a properly done job.

rnln · 03-19-2008, 11:03 AM

Honestly, I am thinking about taking my cat off before finding how to put seafoam through the intake manifold. And maybe some into the gas tank, seafoam or something I will ask more question. I don't know if I really want to put it into the engine case.
Regarding your replied, I think you can't tell what ALL the "professional mechanics" do out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFairman

it's reading stuff like this and other posts from others that once again confirm to me, NEVER buy a car thats been worked on and maintained by the unexperienced beginner mechanic owner. . . ONLY buy one thats been worked on and maintained by a professional mechanic.

you have to have the maintenance receipts before spending that kind of money on an expensive engine, etc. as a porsche. if the owner did his own work, learning along the way ... you just don't know what you're gonna get.

i know you won't like my post, but you won't listen to people that know more than you either.

that said, have a wonderful day and do what you want, it's your car

84porsche9113.2 · 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jurhip

If you really have deposits that affect performance. That the part off, dissemble and then use whatever material compatible solvent you want. Clean residue, reassemble and be happy with a properly done job.

In an ideal world, I would do just exactly what you say. The trouble is that although this solution is "in principle" the "right" and correct method, it does not take into account cost. All professions, including auto repair or even doctors in the medical field, NEED to consider cost and economy when making recommendations to do a procedure. That is the simple reality and no one makes recommendations in principal only or in a vacuum without considering cost.

Because I'm not one to take out my engine just to clean carbon deposits, it would have to be done at the same time I'm doing other things, or possibly repairing the engine. Even the "professional mechanics" (at least the "good ones" IMHO) are aware of being economical at the same time. If you have to drop the engine and trans to fix something in the trans, they will probably recommend replacing the clutch disc as well if it is nearing the end of its life since if you were to wait till later, you would be spending that much more $ just to take the engine out again when you needed to only replace a $100 clutch disc part (not sure what the going rate is now).

I don't think even a "professional mechanic" (as mentioned by JFairman) who is aware that their customers are cost-conscious, would recommend that their customer pay him to take the engine out and disassemble it just to clean carbon deposits from the engine if it was only minimally affecting engine performance.

The question is, even if seafoam is the "cheap" or stopgap solution to carbon, is it somewhat effective without being harmful? If it is effective and does somewhat of what it advertises, then just maybe it is worth the minimal cost.

On the other hand, if it is doing serious and heavy damage to the "expensive" porsche engine, then it probalby should not be done.

I know I for one am not going to take my engine apart "just" to clean the carbon deposits. So the question becomes, is it worth it to try seafoam as a temporary and possibly less effective solution? Or is it better to do it not at all?

Obviously if the stuff does not harm the engine, then why not try it? I don't know about others but I'm more willing to put 1/2 a can in my intake than I am willing to spend several months on the weekends taking out my engine and cleaning the carbon off.

I guess that is the real issue here (if it is in fact harmful or not) because seafoam "claims" their stuff won't hurt the engine. Obviously I took the chance and (possibly naively) took seafoam at their word.

Since I've already done it, I can't cry over spilt milk or go back and undo the past. But if it really is harmful I for one would like to get some other educated opinions since that would affect my decision on whether I would do it again.

Stephen B · Stephen B's Garage

I purchased my Porsche from a guy that had it 'professionally maintained' since he did not have mechanical skills. Since then, with the help of this board, I have changed the majority of the oil lines (which were leaking / deteriorating), most of the exhaust gaskets (which were cracked / missing), rear wheel bearings (which were rumbling), the waste gate diaphragm (which was punctured) and a multitude of other small but expensive items that were ignored during routine 'professional' maintenance. And before you comment on my lack of purchasing skills - the very same 'professional mechanic' gave me a stellar PPI report.

911quest · 03-19-2008, 02:03 PM

Wynn's and BG make a great top end cleaner how it works is you connect the cleaner apparatus to the inlet fuel line and it uses air pressure to force the cleaner Thur the fuel rail while the engine runs this usually cost @100.00 at most shops. I have pretty good success with it. It cleans the valves the pistons and also cleans the injectors.

Now another story I heard is that GM (caddy's) had problems with piston rings getting stuck in the ring land and what they recommended doing is removing the spark plugs and fill the Cly. with their top end cleaner and letting it sit over night. then drain the oil cause all the cleaner would have leaked past the rings. Then they say refill the oil then run at 2500 RPM then change the oil again.I have no experience with this it is just in a trade magazine I was reading...

84porsche9113.2 · 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 911quest

Wynn's and BG make a great top end cleaner how it works is you connect the cleaner apparatus to the inlet fuel line and it uses air pressure to force the cleaner Thur the fuel rail while the engine runs this usually cost @100.00 at most shops. I have pretty good success with it. It cleans the valves the pistons and also cleans the injectors.

Now another story I heard is that GM (caddy's) had problems with piston rings getting stuck in the ring land and what they recommended doing is removing the spark plugs and fill the Cly. with their top end cleaner and letting it sit over night. then drain the oil cause all the cleaner would have leaked past the rings. Then they say refill the oil then run at 2500 RPM then change the oil again.I have no experience with this it is just in a trade magazine I was reading...

Hey thanks for this info.

You know, I already clean my injectors using a similar method, but I do it for a lot less than $100 and it is a concentrated injector cleaner that connects up to the rail like you mention. The car runs off the cleaner while the fuel pump is electrically disconnected. I don't have much faith in "in-the tank" cleaners which are so diluted. But I figure even concentrated injector cleaner is mainly for the injectors and not really billed as carbon cleaner, which is why I still did the seafoam anyway.

That is an interesting point you brought out about GM's stuff. I also read about their GM branded "seafoam-like" treatment for cadillacs as well (although I did not hear about any problems). The blurb I read seemed to say that they put it in through the intake vaccum line just like seafoam. Anyway, although they have completely different chemicals in theirs, I figured if a major mfg like GM is putting stuff through the vaccum in their car's intakes and running it to clean carbon like seafoam does, then at least seafoam's "method or concept" to clean carbon from the engine seems to be accepted by a major car maufacturer.... From what I read it is actually a "factory recommended" procedure in the manual that their techs perform when they are trying to solve problems related to excessive carbon in the engine. Also it is an interesting fact to learn that GM recommends an oil change after treatment (actually 2 of them), where seafoam does not...

911quest · 03-19-2008, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 84porsche9113.2

I wonder why seafom does not tell you to change the oil like GM does for their product...?

Probably cause Seafoam isn't worried about future warranty issue's

84porsche9113.2 · 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 911quest

Now another story I heard is that GM (caddy's) had problems with piston rings getting stuck in the ring land and what they recommended doing is removing the spark plugs and fill the Cly. with their top end cleaner and letting it sit over night. then drain the oil cause all the cleaner would have leaked past the rings. Then they say refill the oil then run at 2500 RPM then change the oil again.I have no experience with this it is just in a trade magazine I was reading...

Since you mentioned this GM stuff, I thought I'd cut/paste the procedure for it that I remembered seeing on a cadillac board. Although the product is totally different, the procedure they use is almost identical to seafoam...

I'm obviously not recommending anything here, since this is a porsche and not a GM board. This is just strictly FYI. Just in case anyone is interested in the concept, since the subject was brought up but not in good detail previously...

Apparently this was taken from a "TSB" to remedy "cold-knock" on a cadillac northstar, caused by excessive carbon. Interestingly enough it says nothing about the 2 oil changes, although I'm not doubting you on that information either (the procedure you saw about putting it through the spark plug holes was apparently a GM procedure related to a different carbon problem and therefore a little different?)...

Also notice in the beginning where they say "Before considering major engine repairs, the technician should perform the following procedure to clean carbon from the combustion chambers." Thus, it seems that even GM thinks along the lines of economy that I had mentioned earlier and instructs their techs to consider economy as well....

To me that's just common sense since I do value my time and I don't have all the time or $$ in the world to repair cars, but I guess it may not be to others who are perfectionists and have a lot of time or $$ on their hands....

Before considering major engine repairs, the technician should perform the following procedure to clean carbon from the engine combustion chambers.
Note: This procedure must be strictly followed. Hydrostatic lock may result causing severe engine damage if this procedure is not strictly adhered to. (that's important.)

1) Obtain one can of GM TOP engine cleaner (TEC) P/N 1052626.
2) Start the engine and bring the engine coolant temp to 200 degrees on the instrument panel gauge. (220F on a scan tool)
IMPORTANT: Do not raise the engine speed above idle
3) with the engine idling, disconnect the PCV hose from the PCV valve and slowly spray the TEC into the end of the hose.
4) Raise the engine speed to approximately 2000 rpm until you see a cloud of white smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe, then shut off the engine.
5) Let the vehicle sit for at least 20 minutes, preferably overnight. This allows time for the TEC to act on the carbon deposits.
6) Once the soak period has been completed, start the engine and proceed to remove the remainder of the TEC from the engine by increasing the engine speed to 2000rpm until the white smoke has diminished.

84porsche9113.2 · 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen B

And before you comment on my lack of purchasing skills - the very same 'professional mechanic' gave me a stellar PPI report.

Well I am understanding this situation correctly, I would just comment if the guy who is giving you the PPI report is the same guy who did all the maintenance work, would you have expected anything different, i.e., a bad report? I thought the whole purpose of the PPI (or one I would look for anyway) would be to get an indpendent evaluation of the vehicle? If the mechanic who gives the PPI report is the same guy who maintained that vehicle, wouldn't he tend to be biased in favor of passing his own work? I would think this is especially so when he had a previous busniess relationship with the seller and he knew the seller was trying to make a sale... Maybe there was some kind of collusion going on...

But I agree in regards to your other point -- that just because you take it to a "professional" doesn't mean the professional can't screw it up. In that case you're even more of a fool because you unwittingly paid someone to do shoddy work and you could've prevented that situation if you had just known how to do it right on your own in the first place...

As even your post shows, I think what DIY's may lack in "professional" training, they many times make up for in common sense, much greater attention to detail, and most importantly, a "vested interest" in the final result. It seems that sometimes even the professionals miss important things, perhaps because either they handle so much volume and have less time to spend on each car, they don't care as much, it is "just business", it is not "their" car, and/or all of the above.

sig_a · 03-19-2008, 04:41 PM

I suffer under a common delusion that I'm a better Porsche mechanic on my 911 than the average professional Porsche mechanic out there. I spare no expense on the right tools and research, which are key to success. Same goes in investing money. So far, so good on both counts. Two thumbs up for those willing to dive into DIY Porsche projects. The rest are posers.