My PMO ITB Project

[frankc]

Where did you find the knob for the hand throttle? I was able to purchase all the other hand throttle pieces from Pelican, but last I checked the knob was NLA.

[dfink]

Originally Posted by JJ 911SC

Hey Paul

Great to hear. I recalled reading your post about the AC and wiper intefering.

Won't have that problem as the AC was not installed when I got the car and there was no wiper for the 83 Cab The engine damper (Cab only) may give me some problem.

Definitely got questions but want to digest what I have been reading.

I know that Trog got is kit from Clewett Eng, did you go with them as well?

I did send C.E. an e-mail earlier today asking for some details. Not sure how you guys got your info back in 2009 as I find it hard to figure stuff out in 2012 PMO website is short on details.

If you can take a look at at the C.E. kit that I'm looking at and see if its all in but as usual, I expect there is more require as it mentioned: Note, 3.2 liter and smaller engines will need a crank trigger adapter.

I'm sure that you will notice a slight price increase since you got yours

Cheerio

JJ

Easy problem to fix. Just buy my car after the SCCA Nationals is over. Haven't seen my car. Just do a search for dfink

[dfink]

One other comment since this thread appears to keep coming up from time to time. You can pretty much ignore all the posts about setting this or setting that. Most everything in the thread I posted wound up not being correct. One of the biggest issues I found was that I had to turn off nearly all the additional enrichments. For sure the acceleration enrichment was the biggest headache. Even a small amount seemed to cause all sorts of issues. I also found that I had to use the blend feature quite higher than I was told and most important thing to remember is that small adjustments can make very large changes and because the tables are interpolated changeing one cell effects the cell next to it and so on. So you kind of need to keep thinging in terms of averages or slopes. Also there is a reason that engines are equiped with idle control valves and that reason is that fuel air and timing are not the only factors at play. Oil viscosity, part tolerances etc, cause the engine to run slower when cold also fuel doesn't vaporize quite the same. I did find that setting my cams at 2mm TDC instead of 1.2mm significantly increased the low end torque and that the car now idles better cold that it did later cam timing. It also now pulls like a mule but runs out on the top end. And by runs out I mean doesn't quite pull as good as it did before over 7000.

[will hung]

Originally Posted by Trog

...The only other change was the installation of a backdated air filter. The air filter includes an oil tank bung which allowed me to '86' the oil collection tank. Plus it included a port for the fuel tank vapour recirculation...

You forgot to add that it makes it look totally bad a$$.

[scarceller]

Originally Posted by Trog

Not much new to report since I've completed the ITB and suspension upgrades. The engine starts and runs fine when air temperatures are above 60degF. However below 50DegF, it takes a few moments of cranking to get her fired-up. Then you need to feather the throttle to keep revs up before she'll idle. To deal with the cold start/idle issue, I backdated my auto-heat and installed a hand throttle.

Trog,
Cold start below 50F as we know needs extra fuel but more important is extra ignition and tons of it! The Stock DME has a CHT table for ignition compensation this table has CHT as it's axis and the values are amount of extra ignition to be added. Hopefully you have the ability to implement such a table? To help here's what the stock 89 chip does in this table:

CHT DegC - Amount of added ign
-32 - 18deg
0c - 0deg
65c - 0deg

If CHT is below 0c (32f) they start throwing extra ign at it.
at 0c - they feather out the ignition
and 65c this is assumed to be a warm enough condition to no longer need extra ign.

Every engine is slightly different in it's needs but this principle of extra ignition during cold engine start is very helpful. You may want to toy with this idea.

I can also share the stock chip basics on how they add fuel during cold start if you like.

Hope this helps

[JJ 911SC]

Originally Posted by Trog

... That's about it. The car starts fine, runs great, and has never left me down.

I'm going with your setup (-the back dated air filter)

Originally Posted by dfink

One other comment since this thread appears to keep coming up from time to time. You can pretty much ignore all the posts about setting this or setting that. Most everything in the thread I posted wound up not being correct...

I talked to Richard yesterday and he did mentioned that should anything arise to call him first. Also on his Tech Tip page they mentioned that most problem arise from wiring snafus so I'll read 10 time and installed once (I hope).

Yes, as you mentioned small adjustment is the rule.

The kit is being put together this week and should be here before the end of the month.

I'm scheduling my engine drop for the 1st of December (earlier if Mother Nature get PO)

[scarceller]

The stock DME actually uses very little accel fuel enrichment and at greater than 4000RPMs it has none at all! You need fuel enrichment to compensate for the fuel that's stripped from the intake port wall during sudden air flow changes but these motors don't have much fuel stuck to the walls of the intake at very high RPMs so no accel fuel comp is required. Folks tend to over enrich accel fuel because they assume it's needed. A tuning tip: Don't turn on accel fuel enrichment till AFTER you tuned all other fuel properly. Then you do accel fuel last.

I've mentioned this before: if you plan to do a custom EFI you must get the 2 books written by Greg Banish search him on Amazon they are must read!

[Jonny042]

Trog, how would you describe the engine sound when driving, with the ITB's, compared to stock, with the K&N/rainshield combo, and then compared to the backdated air filter setup? (Looks awesome!)

Also, is there any change in power delivery with the filter acting as a plenum?

Thanks in advance! And thanks for sharing everything up to this point!

Originally Posted by Trog

Not much new to report since I've completed the ITB and suspension upgrades. The engine starts and runs fine when air temperatures are above 60degF. However below 50DegF, it takes a few moments of cranking to get her fired-up. Then you need to feather the throttle to keep revs up before she'll idle. To deal with the cold start/idle issue, I backdated my auto-heat and installed a hand throttle.




The only other change was the installation of a backdated air filter. The air filter includes an oil tank bung which allowed me to '86' the oil collection tank. Plus it included a port for the fuel tank vapour recirculation.




That's about it. The car starts fine, runs great, and has never left me down.

[Trog]

Originally Posted by frankc

Where did you find the knob for the hand throttle? I was able to purchase all the other hand throttle pieces from Pelican, but last I checked the knob was NLA.

Sorry, I purchased the whole throttle/heater handle used in one assembly. I don't know where you can find just the 'knob'?

[Trog]

Originally Posted by scarceller

Trog,
Cold start below 50F as we know needs extra fuel but more important is extra ignition and tons of it! The Stock DME has a CHT table for ignition compensation this table has CHT as it's axis and the values are amount of extra ignition to be added. Hopefully you have the ability to implement such a table? To help here's what the stock 89 chip does in this table:

CHT DegC - Amount of added ign
-32 - 18deg
0c - 0deg
65c - 0deg

If CHT is below 0c (32f) they start throwing extra ign at it.
at 0c - they feather out the ignition
and 65c this is assumed to be a warm enough condition to no longer need extra ign.

Every engine is slightly different in it's needs but this principle of extra ignition during cold engine start is very helpful. You may want to toy with this idea.

I can also share the stock chip basics on how they add fuel during cold start if you like.

Hope this helps

Hi Sal, thanks for chiming in. I'll have a look at the software and see if there's provision for cold-cranking ignition advance. It's been a while since I've tinkered with it, but I do believe there is some adjustment in this area.

Cheers,

T...

[Trog]

Originally Posted by Jonny042

Trog, how would you describe the engine sound when driving, with the ITB's, compared to stock, with the K&N/rainshield combo, and then compared to the backdated air filter setup? (Looks awesome!)

Also, is there any change in power delivery with the filter acting as a plenum?

Thanks in advance! And thanks for sharing everything up to this point!

The idle has smoothed out with the addition of the back-dated air filter. Power (seat of the pants) only seemed to suffer at the top end.

As far as engine sound goes... I can't hear a thing back there since the addition of these headers:

[scarceller]

I love that 2in 2out M&K pipe with that custom valance!
Very nice!

[JJ 911SC]

Originally Posted by scarceller

... I've mentioned this before: if you plan to do a custom EFI you must get the 2 books written by Greg Banish search him on Amazon they are must read!

Could not find "For Dummy" version. Got the Trio, without fries...

Frequently Bought Together
+ +
Price For All Three: $48.86


Designing and Tuning High-Performance Fuel Injection Systems by Greg Banish Paperback $16.47

Engine Management: Advanced Tuning by Greg Banish Paperback $16.10

Performance Fuel Injection Systems HP1557: How to Design, Build, Modify, and Tune EFI and ECU Systems.Covers Components, Sensors, Fuel and Ignition ... Tips, Aftermarket ECUs, and EFI Convers by Matt Cramer Paperback $16.29

[scarceller]

The 3rd book from Matt Cramer is OK but has a few errors in it when it comes to electrical theory. Still a good book though. I much prefer Greg's style of writing.

Originally Posted by JJ 911SC

Could not find "For Dummy" version. Got the Trio, without fries...

Frequently Bought Together
+ +
Price For All Three: $48.86


Designing and Tuning High-Performance Fuel Injection Systems by Greg Banish Paperback $16.47

Engine Management: Advanced Tuning by Greg Banish Paperback $16.10

Performance Fuel Injection Systems HP1557: How to Design, Build, Modify, and Tune EFI and ECU Systems.Covers Components, Sensors, Fuel and Ignition ... Tips, Aftermarket ECUs, and EFI Convers by Matt Cramer Paperback $16.29

[JJ 911SC]

Broke open the kit. The product from are nicely finished.

I talked to Richard (at C.E.) a few times, great guy. Glad to have got my stuff through him.

The project: "PMO EFI for Dummy" is scheduled to start on the 1st of November, earlier if the snow comes early. In the meanwhile here are a few pics.

[911 tweaks]

jj...how much will the complete kit cost...?? can you show a pic of the entire kit installed on a motor...?? (maybe it is in this thread...I just want to be sure what I am looking at)

When you start in November the "PMO EFI for dummies", please post a link here so I can follow this topic...

Sounds great & very promising...

Thx for sharing..

Bob

[JJ 911SC]

Bob

About 6-7K for the Sequential version. Some oversea system are cheaper.

I'll be keeping my original equipment so I can move it to another platform if needed.

Check Post # 188 for finish product.

Its worth to read the whole thread keeping in mind that it was started way back when.

Will post a link here once I start the new thread.

[JJ 911SC]

Originally Posted by JJ 911SC

... The project: "PMO EFI for Dummy" is scheduled to start on the 1st of November, earlier if the snow comes early...

Well the snow has not come yet and my work oversea has been shorten but shift to the left, so I'm still on the road... Will do the pre work in December (engine drop, engine bay refresh, valve adjustment and so on) and will start the actual conversion on the 3rd of February and plan to hit the road of on the 1st April. Stay tune.

[Geneman]

Jj did you start your conversion yet?? Dear pelican peeps, i know this is reviving a quite dormant thread but i am just startting the coonversion on a 3.2 with exactly the same components as trog and jj ..hope to document it a bit more... So far the wiring has me confused. Stay tuned frank

[JJ 911SC]

Frank

Great timing as I about to start posting (tomorrow).

The engine has been strip and cleaned.

The only thing done so far is the cam cover removal. That was fun... Really stuck but after a while it dawn on me to punch the bottom in and sure enough the top part start to come out.

Yes, the wiring is a bit intimidating.

I'll post the link of the new thread in the morning.