The point of no return - how do you know you are there?

[JeremyD]

I feel like I am knocking on the door.

I have a 1987 Cabriolet - not known for being svelte.

I attended an autocross over the weekend. Did pretty well (only a 2005 carrera beat my time and only by .088 seconds). Beat some pretty well set up Boxsters.

Anyway - I could feel the car wallow around. It basically has stock suspension aside from the strut brace and PB A-arm bushings. Bilstein HD's all around. Stock TB and sways.

Anyway - my mechanic recommends not going too stiff with the cabriolet body. I really like to drive this car on the street, yet I feel with all my track time, modifications - that I am leaning much more Track > Street.

It has AC that works - it has a nice engine - it 's in excellent shape. I really think it would be a crime to strip it. I also don't want to make it too stiff.

So - should I sell it and try and find a coupe that I can lighten away and stiffen up?

I can't even believe I said that.

check out the picture - I got everything going on here - major body lean - major squat (I'm accelerating hard)

[ted]

If you are a track junkie, get a coupe you can fix up with wacky track stuff.
The $$$ from your car should be enough for a good/used track prepped street coupe.
Why change anything, you have the competition covered right now.

[84_Carrera]

Jeremy,
I am in a similar situation. I have an '84 Cab, and I'm a little further along (though not much).

PolyBronzes all around, turbo tie rods, larger T-bars (22/29 Hollows), Bilstein HD / Sports, stock sways, bolt-in Rollbar. I've removed the AC COMPLETELY. I did add a chin & Carrera tail, however, so that weight removal is moot. I'm more likely to do a DE than an autocross though, and I drive her daily (and like trip digits), so it was a compromise I was willing to make. I do not have a strut brace.

I like my tunes too, so I have kept the radio, replaced the speakers (& went larger) and have a sub box under the pass. seat.

I'm running '92 C2 5-spoke wheels (16x6 / 16x8), stock tire sizes.

I'm about to go weigh mine, but I think I'll find she's around about stock with the roll bar in.

I have pics of mine cornering before the suspension swap, but not after. I can tell you she FEELS more stable to be sure, and I picked up serious MPH on high speed corners. However, I have a little bit of chassis noise now - something's moving around / creaking since stiffening.

I have already admitted to myself that I will forego the Cab / Targa next time around, and go with a Coupe, and that I might even try to find one without a sunroof. (Gasp!). I like the lines of the coupe as you look at the car a lot more than the Cab, and I want something a little more inherently stiff. Makes it easier to drive in poorer weather also. I will definitely miss the summer drives with the top down, no doubt.

At this point, I would ask yourself what's really important to you... track or street comfort? If you can answer that, you're on your way. If you can only say "both", you're in for a rough decision. Either way, I wouldn't go too nutty stripping a Cab down weight-wise, unless you were looking to make a topless Roadster like the Viper R/T10 was when it first arrived, with perhaps some snaps / tenax fasteners for an emergency tonneau type of thing, and go with a permanently-welded half-cage (4 point in the back + door rails, etc. - and that's in the realm of "WTF did I do this for again?).

Good luck.

[KTL]

Don't sell it. You'll end up doing a bunch of the same stuff again, just a different car.

I say you get some 22/29 t-bars and adjustable sways. That will arrest a lot of the body roll. 22/29 is a tolerable street ride. I had them before the 23/31 I currently have and there is a big difference in feel. Adjustable sways are key to arresting what roll the bigger t-bars don't. And mind you, the 22/29 still allows for a good bit of roll.

I'd suggest the Weltmeister basic sways because they incorporate rubber bushings, which will help maintain some civility to your car. I have a TRG "Tarett" bar and the solid bushings + non-teflon lined spherical droplinks are a bit harsh and also squeaky. The upside to the adjustable sways is not only tuning for max performance, but also you can disconnect them for the street driving to reduce the harshness.

Next step to kill some roll & pitch is also the fiberglass bumpers. Then you're losing some of the street safety. Looks are of course improved, but crash protection is zero.

If you're really looking to make it a true track performer, you obviously need to either put in a full cage to stiffen the cab structure or get a coupe. Maybe you can save yourself some grief by buying a couple and transferring the goods from the cab into it.

[84_Carrera]

Kevin, I agree with you as far as the 22/29 combo - I DO like it, however I'm thinking it might be a bit much for a Cab, which is not as stable / stiff as your Coupe.

[dfink]

Load it full of C.R.A.P. and kick butt. That's what I say. The goal for my 84 cab was 2200 lbs and 340HP. Just weighed it dry minus axles and had 1998lbs. Due to mods the engine and tranny with clutch only weigh 510 lbs togeather. You are not even close to the deep end of the pool yet. Until you start welding or cutting you are still able to put things back. However my friend the road to C.R.A.P. heaven is very slippery and the slide to the deep end can happen in the blink of a check book.

[JeremyD]

Just for the record - my car is a 67,000 mile original paint, no stories, original top car.

[MotoSook]

JD,

Get a custom cage welded to it...one that has a full hoop behind the front seats and bracing to the rear seat area, but then triangulate the main hoop to the door sills and A-pillor-door post. Something that only looks like you have a roll bar, but when you open the doors you see a cage to the front of the chassis. I think that would be the hot set up for cabs. With welded in plates, you can even make the cage a bolt in (bolted to the plates).

I would think that a custom cage like that will cost $2000 or so, and you won't have loss all the work you've done to your car.

[rfloz]

For any track work a rollbar will be required.

For auto-cross, you can leave it alone and probably do quite well in the stock classes. Auto-cross is more about the driver than the car.

Lean and squat do not mean your car is handling badly. The key is balance and adjustable sways and/or reasonable T-bars can take care of that.

It sounds like a really sweet street/driver, why mess it up?

Before you spend a bunch of money, beg a drive in someone's fully prepped auto-cross or track car and see if that is really what you want. For some of us it's perfect; for others, not so much.

[Zeke]

Just HD shocks alone in not the optimal set up. I'd up the t-bars some and you might find it will ride even better and smoother than currently. This has happened in my case. And I agree with Bob F. that for autocross you can keep the car you have, drive it well (apparently you do already) an have a nice street machine.

For people who want to race their heart out, get a kart. No kidding. Cheap, too, compared to carving on a 911.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by dfink

...weighed it dry minus axles and had 1998lbs. Due to mods the engine and tranny with clutch only weigh 510 lbs together. ...

incredible if accurate

tell us more

[Grady Clay]

Originally Posted by JeremyD

I feel like I am knocking on the door.
I have a 1987 Cabriolet - not known for being svelte.

I attended an autocross over the weekend. Did pretty well (only a 2005 carrera beat my time and only by .088 seconds). Beat some pretty well set up Boxsters.

Anyway - I could feel the car wallow around. It basically has stock suspension aside from the strut brace and PB A-arm bushings. Bilstein HD's all around. Stock TB and sways.

Anyway - my mechanic recommends not going too stiff with the cabriolet body. I really like to drive this car on the street, yet I feel with all my track time, modifications - that I am leaning much more Track > Street.

It has AC that works - it has a nice engine - it 's in excellent shape. I really think it would be a crime to strip it. I also don't want to make it too stiff.

So - should I sell it and try and find a coupe that I can lighten away and stiffen up?
I can't even believe I said that.

Jeremy,

Since you asked….
You aren’t there yet with your Cabriolet. You are dangerously close.

The best recommendations above are to get or build a dedicated track car. That doesn’t mean it can’t also be licensed for the street but you should keep your nice street 911. There are a LOT of choices and you should carefully investigate them all. Given today’s economic situation and the dim prospect for a quick turnaround there are probably some real bargains.

First I would look at your local and weekend track opportunities. Autocross, drivers education, various club racing and real amateur racing all should be in the consideration mix – even if you eventually dismiss some.

Time is a major consideration. That includes preparation, travel, events and recovery.

Budget is always the major consideration. It is the cost of going to events, not necessarily the vehicle. Well, maybe not if you buy a new GT3 RSR.

I would consider all cars; 911s, 914s, 944s maybe even a Miata or a racing gokart.

Then there is the ‘impedimentia’ – all the stuff. Do you want to stay at the ‘pack everything in the car and drive to the track’ level or do you want an 18-wheel transporter? Of course there are all the shades in between.

You also need to decide which side of neutral you are on with being a hero driver or a tinkerer mechanic. In reality you need to be both. Some enjoy one more than the other. If you DIY, you need a place (remember, spouses take a dim view of being kicked out of their garage parking space) and tools. If you don’t DIY, you need deeper pockets.

So many decisions.

Best,
Grady

PS: PM me your email and I’ll send you the draft of “How to go to events” paper.

[dfink]

Originally Posted by RWebb

incredible if accurate

tell us more

Don't want to trample on the thread so breifly the tranny is stock except 2nd gear. The engine was rebored to 3.4 with 10:5 JE pistons, has PMO ITB's and electromotive management system. The coils are not mounted to the engine. The pressure plate was replaced with an aluminum sachs sport. The headers are european raceing (georges). I weighed the car before engine and tranny and had 1486 with the engine and tranny had 1998 so 512 lbs. Maybe I missed something. The car is stripped has no top (actually it has a fiberglass hard top) I just got my set of slicks today so will mount them on the fuchs and weigh the car again. I will even put the 15lb seat in this time. A 2100lb cab with 300+ HP (hope for 340) with nothing left, but air in the hair, is what I call "in too deep". Jeremy has not quite hit that point yet.

Want to see more.
dfink takes over for "kurt b"

[juanbenae]

do coupes still drool??


i am in the same spot right now with my coupe in that do i rip the interior out and make it more of a dedicted track car or keep tracking it as is? i am considering upgrading a bolt in autopower roll bar i put in a few years back when my car started seeing more track time with something more safe/sane/stiff. i need to keep the car street legal to justify the investment because 10-12 track days a year is not enough to keep such an expense in my tax bracket.. i only drive the thing on the street less than 1000 miles a year so loud and stripped might not be the end of the world..

i have an idea what yer going through right now.. whats a 9/10 interior carpet worth?....

[JeremyD]

Thanks for the inputs - Grady I am honored to have you weigh in on the subject.

And yes, to answer the most important question coupes always drool.

I have a DAS rollbar that I can bolt in bolt out using the seatbelt locations.

Obviously I've done some engine work and brakes - none of which effect the comfort of the vehicle as a street vehicle. my next step is the suspension. I know that if I do what I usually do - I'll be changing out tbars and revalving shocks - but I also don't think it makes sense to take a pretty nice cabriolet and turn it into a mostly track burner.

That's one of the reasons I have refrained from race seats, drilling holes, etc.

dfink - I'd love to do what you have - but not sure a 67000 g-50 cab is the best starting point.

That said - I think I'll end up doing a couple more events me then put it on the market in the spring (when a nice cabriolet is more likely to sell). Hopefully we won't still be in a complete economic melt down. Maybe look for either an earlier car or a 993.

[charleskieffner]

jeremyd................i feel yer pain. should i go to a 3.4 or leave stock. 3.4 i jump out of showroom stock, but i retain originality, which despite what we want to hear is the most desirable car to have when selling.

i have done everything to my suspension as per showroom stock w/exception of rear monoballs. i'll be doing those when i pull engine tranny.

right now it truly is a rear engined nazi slot car. a lil stiff sometimes, a lil loud exhaust(crank the stereo) and it still has damn good a/c.

living where i do half the year its over a 100 degrees and track stuff is limited to a coupla of early early am events.

i also have i dilemma on who is going to do my engine/trans. i have the luxury of picking 3 that i really like.

the only thing thats gonna tear me away from this car is finding a speedster thats in great shape. with a/c.

mine sits for weeks until i get wild hair and off i go into sunset for a few days and back it goes into the bat cave.

i enjoy the hell out of tracking it, butttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt............after seeing one hit the wall at calif mtr speedway at 150+ mph dead on...........it kind of changed my priorities. its not something that goes away. its always in the back of my head. i have seen tooooo many cars get wasted and it wasnt their fault. ie. the idiot blackflagged at CMS dropping oil and wouldnt get off track until he had covered entire loop with oil and 3 cars get totaled. stuff like that makes a hell of an impression.

maybe if i had unlimited resources i wouldnt be so cautious now. and really if yer gonna go head to head fender to fender IT IS HANG THE EXPENSE ATTITUDE MINDSET or yer never gonna win. he who is willing to take the MOST CHANCES will get the damn trophy.

there is nothing different from 43 porsches and 43 nascars racing except porsches have usually a road course with lefts and right turns. other than that it is CARNAGE just about every single race i have been to.

the problem with racing.........its an addictive drug. it gets worse when you WIN! then you go chase points for a year and become a prisoner to it. nothing wrong with that but yer pockets better be deep, and you better be prepared for the fateful day when you hit someone/somethang or someone hits you. there is a serious downside to this sport and thats yer car being beer canned into a wad of crap. and that my friend aint fun!

what i am trying to say is the guys with the crap paint jobs are the guys who have the most FUN. they dont care what happens to car. if they finish they are happy. if they dont they dont sweat it.

my suggestion is keep the cab and buy a roach 911 and run the snot out of it and see how far ya wanna go with the sport. take it out 2-3 times a year and have fun.

right now im just milking the poo outta my #4 exhaust valve. hell we guess i have about another 23000 miles before i really have to do something to the engine.

[JeremyD]

I can't really afford two toys right now - As much as I would like.

I also like the idea of driving a car to DE's I think that knowing you have to drive it back (or flat bed it back) keeps you from driving out of your head.

[charleskieffner]

i am also guilty of haunting the local porsche junkyard here in phx. we really do have the best of all worlds when it comes to non rusted rollers. check out 20th street auto parts.com. he seems to jump on some real nice cars that could become possible track roaches.

next thing to think about is float a resume to some teams racing and see if ya cant get some stick time. maybe like some enduros.

there are alot of people that jump into this just like flying planes, that very quickly have the poo scared out of them and just want to be car owners after cleaning their pants out.

[Grady Clay]

Charles,

You bring up a good point.

Participating at levels higher than autocross and mild DEs involve significant risk to property and even body. My general feeling is one should play at a comfortable level where, if the worst should happen, you kick the carnage and walk away with only a relatively minor dent to your pocketbook and a sore toe.

The “relatively minor dent” is different for each person. The greatest pain is when one has to keep paying while the wreckage sits in storage. One should be able to simply limp away with a sour toe and bruised ego. Tomorrow is another day.

I make the analogy that a race car is like a box of Kleenex. You buy a new box and madly tear out the tissue. Pretty soon the box is empty. Many stuff new tissue in and continue. Eventually the box gets damaged. Some application of tape delays the inevitable. Eventually you buy another box. If the box gets stepped on or destroyed while being used, wipe your eyes on your sleeve and walk away.

To approach amateur motorsports any other way, you might as well take up heroin, alcohol, gambling and other less expensive addictions.

The goal can be a life-long fun sport. Common sense allows one to do that.

Best,
Grady