better platform for modified 911 SC or carrera?

[newcar08]

trying to decide between these two models and need to weigh the +'s and -'s.

is it easier to make up for the extra weight of the carrera or the weaker engine of the sc?

as far as i can tell the main difference between the sc and the carrera is about 400lbs and 30-40hp (ignoring the g-50 vs 915 debate). the car will be lightly modified and see both track and street either way but am hoping the veterans here can advise which build will be better/more cost effective in the long run. Some of the weight savings threads post numbers in the 400-500lb range (carreras) which seems to make up for the difference, but what are you giving up that an sc still has? also that makes any weight-saving possibilities on the sc look even better (does anyone know what more is to be had there?). Similarly i am hoping to get 250 - 300 whp at the end of the day and this may be significantly easier in the carrera from an engine standpoint.

i like light fast cars formerly having owned a lotus elan i am hoping to build a pretty light car but with significantly more power and suspension/brakes to match.

fyi- yes i have driven both 911 and sc I am asking more from a mechanical/technical perspective of what can be done and how much it costs

[RWebb]

easier?

or cheaper?

if the latter then pick the Carrera - chip the motor for "cheap" and remove all the luxo-barge crap (for free); you can sell much of the stuff you remove

[RWebb]

250 - 300 hp is major surgery no matter what

no idea what whp is...

[ShakinJoe]

I have had Carrera's with the 915 and the G-50 and they are night and day with the G-50 being more user friendly. However....I really liked driving the 915 as it took some skill. For active street use...the G50 would be my preference.

[JohnJL]

WHP = wishful HP!

Neither a 3.2 or an SC will get those RWHP figures without surgery or some $ on a supercharger/turbo system.

[TRE Cup]

light and quick? go with the 3.2 / 915- easy to exhaust and chip tune for good torque and hp
Then lighten the car more and see how much fun you will have

[RWebb]

there is no reason why a Carrera cannot be lightened to the same wt. as a longhood car -- or more

[porschenut]

Originally Posted by RWebb

if the latter then pick the Carrera - chip the motor for "cheap" and remove all the luxo-barge crap (for free); you can sell much of the stuff you remove

LOL! Exactly what luxo-barge crap does a Carrera have that an SC doesn't? They're basically identical cars except for the engine.

[911st]

With the plan you have both cars are basically the same except if you are going for a G50 car.

Put a 915 Carrera and SC on the scales that have the same options and they will weigh the same.

It might be worth looking for a not sunroof car to save 40 lbs up high which is very hard to find in a Carrera.

You mightt get close to 300 hp through a modified Carrera Intake but will definitely have to replace the SC's.

If going Turbo a G50 car is a must.

[porschenut]

Originally Posted by newcar08

as far as i can tell the main difference between the sc and the carrera is about 400lbs and 30-40hp

400 lbs.???? How about 0 lbs. and 17 hp.

Curb weight, DIN, 1981 911SC = 2,756 lbs.
Curb weight, DIN, 1984 911 Carrera = 2,756 lbs.

BHP, 1981 911SC = 190
BHP, 1984 911 Carrera = 207

Per factory workshop manuals.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by porschenut

LOL! Exactly what luxo-barge crap does a Carrera have that an SC doesn't? They're basically identical cars except for the engine.

I think you mis-read my post. They are both [or can be] crammed full of luxo-barge crap:

a/c
electric seats
electric windows - OK, I could live with that...
elec. door locking
3 freaking blowers for the heat and another one for the fresh air
heavy sound proofing all over the place
and etc.

OTOH, both possess useful light wt. components:
lighter manual seats, starting in 1974
Al R banana arms
Al F crossbar
struts have 3.5" spacing for nice brake calipers (not found on all
early cars)
Bilsteins were lighter than the older oil-filled Koni shocks (ok, this started w/ '73 RS, but you get the idea)

That is why they make such great parts cars after having been rolled. My car is a '73 body sitting atop a Carrera suspension; powertrain, and brakes...

[newcar08]

thanks for all the input so i must have been looking at wrong information for the carrera.

why do these things then have such a bad reputation for being overweight?

last but not least, 250-300 is really unattainable in a 3.2L porsche engine? i thought an air mass sensor aggressive cam and good exhaust would get there easily.

[RWebb]

they get heavier over the years - esp. w g50

issue is what you spend and do to motor re hp
then, how streetable it will be
beyond that it is how long you want it to live

[ischmitz]

I think to get to that amount of HP out of a 3.2 you'd have to spend some serious cash on modifications such as increased compression, dual-plugging, engine management, porting heads, etc. At that point it would be cheaper to upgrade to a 3.6 engine or a 930 Turbo.

Originally Posted by newcar08

thanks for all the input so i must have been looking at wrong information for the carrera.

why do these things then have such a bad reputation for being overweight?

last but not least, 250-300 is really unattainable in a 3.2L porsche engine? i thought an air mass sensor aggressive cam and good exhaust would get there easily.

[TRE Cup]

Cam- no hotter than a 20/21 grind will work with the exisiting pistons

Hot wire? Not worth the $$ spent. It only comes into play at high volume/ high rpm use. The flapper box is the same one used on the 3.6 (obviously a larger motor that can get 300 hp w/o hot wire)

You want to make 300 hp inexpensively? put a 3.6 in there with headers, chip, and free flow exhaust. Far cheaper than a rebuilt 3.2 with hp pistons, cams, programmable injection, etc etc etc

[ZAMIRZ]

I love my '83 SC euro. Been dead reliable and I did some tweaks to it to make it my own personal canyon stomper, but still take the car out on dates and on freeway drives down to San Diego. As much as I enjoy the torque of the 3.0L, I've spent a lot of time head scratching over CIS woes, and that extra hp of the 3.2 would be welcome. With that said, I would look for an '84 to '86 non-sunroof euro carrera in a non-metallic color with the sports pkg (bilsteins all the way around with front lip and rear whale tale). Some of these cars also did not come with A/C, power windows or locks, etc. You can begin by adding a chip + exhaust, rebuild suspension with Bily sports, 26mm rear torsions, replace worn out bushings with the elephant racing stuff and a good lowering/alignment/corner balance. This will give you a fantastic street car that you can drive every day and still rip it up in the twisties. Depending on how much compromise you can live with, start to pull weight out of the car. Begin with gutting the carpet, scraping out the sound deadening, put in ltwt carpet from appbiz and some Recaro pole position seats. Then you can pull out the engine sound pad, scrape away underbody sound-deadening, pull out stereo, swap front valence with SC unit that will delete foglights

[911st]

Originally Posted by newcar08

thanks for all the input so i must have been looking at wrong information for the carrera.

why do these things then have such a bad reputation for being overweight?

last but not least, 250-300 is really unattainable in a 3.2L porsche engine? i thought an air mass sensor aggressive cam and good exhaust would get there easily.

People think the SC weighs less because on the SC A/C, power seats, power windows, sunroof and other items were options and not included in the factory spec numbers. The Carrera had all these items as stock but with possibility to delete. Thus the factory spec for a Carrera included a lot of items the SC base weight did not. AC and SR is 100 lbs, the SC speced with 15" rims for 25 lbs...

I have just a chip and cat bypass and pull 217 rwhp. That is 230-250fwhp.

If smog is not an issue an aggressive cam could be fit with the clearanceing of the pistons.

It is possible to take a 3.2 out to 3.75 if desired. However, one could get some J&E piston and have the stock cylinders bored to a 3.4 and get up to the 250-290hp range.

[jhynesrockmtn]

I'm no expert but I'll throw this out there to see if it helps. The PO told me the mods cost him about $4,000 over what a standard rebuild for this motor would have run him. It was built by Chris Powell in Bellevue WA. This is the spec for the engine for my track car:

Engine Specifications: '86 Euro engine, 10.3:1 compression, crank from a '92 C-2 Turbo, 993 cams, bored out throttle body (3mm over), ported and polished heads, faired and polished intake manifold, crankcase webs beveled for windage, injectors rebuilt and blueprinted, adjustable rising-rate fuel pressure regulator, Sachs Sports clutch (aluminum pressure plate). The pistons, rods, crank, flywheel and pressure plate were all balanced. The connecting rods were reconditioned, balanced end for end, and assembled with ARP rod bolts. The exhaust is by SSI with a Monty muffler. Autothority chip.

Dyno Sheet:

[ischmitz]

So in simple words - you might have close to 250 engine HP translating into 210 RWHP (15% drive train loss and assuming the dyno is accurate) and spend an additional 4k for it.

Another way to look at this could be to sell the stock 3.2 for 6k and buy a stock 3.6 for 8k. Then spend another 2k on conversion parts and you are easily at 300 engine HP - sounds like a better deal to me.

[jhynesrockmtn]

I love my '83 SC euro. Been dead reliable and I did some tweaks to it to make it my own personal canyon stomper, but still take the car out on dates and on freeway drives down to San Diego. As much as I enjoy the torque of the 3.0L, I've spent a lot of time head scratching over CIS woes, and that extra hp of the 3.2 would be welcome. With that said, I would look for an '84 to '86 non-sunroof euro carrera in a non-metallic color with the sports pkg (bilsteins all the way around with front lip and rear whale tale). Some of these cars also did not come with A/C, power windows or locks, etc. You can begin by adding a chip + exhaust, rebuild suspension with Bily sports, 26mm rear torsions, replace worn out bushings with the elephant racing stuff and a good lowering/alignment/corner balance. This will give you a fantastic street car that you can drive every day and still rip it up in the twisties. Depending on how much compromise you can live with, start to pull weight out of the car. Begin with gutting the carpet, scraping out the sound deadening, put in ltwt carpet from appbiz and some Recaro pole position seats. Then you can pull out the engine sound pad, scrape away underbody sound-deadening, pull out stereo, swap front valence with SC unit that will delete foglights

The engine I posted is in an 83 Euro SC. No AC, cruise, foglights. Does have power windows. I put in a TRE rollbar, it has Recaro SRD seats and FIKSE FM10's. It has a Carrera tail. I have the weight at home and can post that from the corner balance. I want to say it was around 2,400 lbs. The suspension is pretty track focused and not real comfortable as a daily driver or on dates unless your woman loves her kidney workouts. I have a more stock 82 SC as a DD. I've been contemplating transplanting the 3.2 into the other SC to get down to 1 911 as a compromise between the two.