If a GT3 can have a Roll Bar, why can't I?

[Noel]

I wonder how many of those rollovers on the street are SUVs and Trucks, vs. low sports cars?

[911st]

It was a wake up moment when I read about running a cage on the street w/o a helmet.

Not an expert but I am thinking the best part of a roll bar (not cage) is for it to anchor a set of five or six point safety harnesses in support of a proper race seat for track use. If approached with some common sense this should not hurt street safety.

If one puts the hoop right behind the head with a hinged seat that is to low for the driver and dose not restrict side to side movement might be a potently fatal idea.

Adding a proper race seat that fit's correctly, something to limits the seat from collapsing backward if a bar of an SCCA style seat support, a hoop that is back from the drivers head some, and proper padding on the bar should greatly improve track safety and not add significantly to risk when not wearing a helmet on the street.

At least that is my two cents worth.

[ski wagen]

Very interesting discussion. A question that occurs to me in reading through this: does anyone know if the factory "Targa bar" provides any greater (or lesser) integrity in the event of roll vs. the B & C pillars on a stock coupe?

[911st]

My guess is no. Open cars are considered risker than coupes. Should the top pop off in a roll it could add its own risk on top of exposing arms and the body to intrusion.

[Jack Olsen]

Originally Posted by Noel

I wonder how many of those rollovers on the street are SUVs and Trucks, vs. low sports cars?

SUVs and Pickup trucks rollover more than most other vehicles. But don't take that as too much comfort. The group paired with them for most-frequent rollovers are sports cars -- the low and wide Corvette is one of the rollover leaders.

Aggressive driving speeds are the culprit with sports cars.

Which of course is something none of us has ever engaged in.

[911st]

Porcupines!

It is the type of drivers that drive the cars, not the cars so much.

[Buckterrier]

Great conversation guys. I installed a DAS rollbar this winter. Would someone be so kind to post a link where I could buy the padding Steven and others have mentioned? Thanks in advance.

[Jack Olsen]

Pgasus

OG Racing

Jegs

[Tooth911]

I have an auto power rollbar wich is scca aproved.

[lateapex911]

Jacks posts have been informative, and his link is the right stuff for padding.

As a racer, and a DE guy, here's what I would suggest:

Add the rollbar. It will give you some peace of mind, and a place to properly position a 5-6-7 point belt system. Your wife will approve. If possible have it custom made to fit snuggly to the body, and away from you. Bolt in versions are often less fitted, and therefor closer to your head. For extra bonus points, add a diagonal from the mid point of the roll bar to the base of the A pillar. This bar would help in the event of a T-bone. I'd do a bolt in version and have tabs welded to the floor at the A pillar and on the roll bar. That way you can remove it between events.

Add a 5-6-7 point belt system, and position it properly. I can give you the SCCA specs, or the manufacturer has them as well. Buy quality. Personally I like the twist open style. Easier to assemble.

Add a good seat. FIA seats are designed for use in racing without a backbrace. They must be properly mounted. Non FIA seats need a backbrace. As Jack pointed out, you need to properly pad and construct this important part.

In my (strong) opinion, the HANS is the defacto standard, like Kleenex. But it isn't the best for your application. I suggest the Issac system. It has great sled test numbers, and MUCH better lateral numbers, and most racing and track hits are everything but straight on. Offset and lateral hits are the most common. Most rollovers have high lateral content. Because it has better lateral protection, you won't need a halo seat, as you would with a HANS to achieve equivalent protection. Halo seats are a real pain to get into and out of, especially if your car is damaged, and you need to climb out through the window. For a daily driver, no comparison.

http://www.isaacdirect.com/

Having worn both the HANS and the Issac, I have found the Issac offers more range of motion, (Unless the HANS is worn overly loose, and that defeats it's purpose) and is easier to get in and out of the car. It's kinda neat, your helmet is connected to rollers on the belts by 2 dampers. So it works in both directions. And the geometry and bi directional action (I think) is what gives it the better lateral numbers. And it won't slip off the belts. (A friend had a hard side impact, broke a rib or two, had the HANS and the right belts, and it still slipped off. He had his bell rung and a sore neck for weeks. I also got turned into the guardrail in my race car at Watkins Glen, and broke some ribs, but no neck soreness or any problems at all. The hit didn't seem that violent, until we needed the porta power to pull the A pillar and B pillars out.)

Anyway, I think that combo is best for your situation. If you were in a formula car, or a dedicated racer, I might modify the advice.

[Buckterrier]

Thanks Jack, much appreciated.

[Maxhouse97]

Great advice - thank you much.

[175K911]

Originally Posted by racer

........

As for the accident at SP.. guess what, at 120mph if your rear rotor explodes, you could be "sol" with or without a rollbar, imho. To protect yourself 100% would require a Hans, harnesses, race containment seat and full cage.

........

I respectfully disagree. Back in the early 90's we had a high hp '91 Turbo hit something slippery (speculation-oil from a broken oil line on a 914 in front of him) under full boost just past the flag tower at Summit. Got sideways, and rolled several times before coming to rest. Was probably well past 120. Had a properly installed Autopower roll bar, stock seats and harnesses. Driver and instructor got out, bruised and shaken but otherwise OK. You could see where the roof collapsed against the bar, and how the bar slightly deflected the floor pan. But it did it's job. And I'd written up incident reports for cars rolled down the chute at Summit, into 1 at the Glen, and others.

No substitute for safety equipment.

[michael lang]

This is an excellent topic and one that I constantly think about for my own car. I believe it's really a matter of personal choice. For myself, I decided it was more important to be anchored into the car and now have much movement in the seat as opposed to having any rollover protection. European cars have so much safety built into them from the factory, even 20 yr old & older cars, that I focused my recources on harnesses and harness bar. My rational being that since I only DE my car, the risks that I am taking are lower than that if I were competing. Like I said, it's really a matter of personal choice and there really is no wrong answer on the subject.

[lateapex911]

And to take the subject further, the driver and his actions have a HUGE effect on the results when incidents happen. Sure, sometimes it all goes wrong, and a component breaks. And sometimes there is nothing you can do. But those situations are rare, and it's far more common that the driver has some control, and can minimize the outcome.

I've watched drivers go off track and turn aggressively to get back on course...and land on the roof. Driver error.

I've watched drivers spin and flop around in front of traffic taking out multiple cars, and they did it after being off course and out of the way. Driver error.

Things like that are avoidable, (simply by easing any steering into the car in the first case. or putting both feet in in the second ) and "what do i do when it goes wrong" is a lesson that should be taught and understood as soon as possible. Sometimes I fear that as instructors we don't cover that topic enough, as it will "scare off" newbies. Some groups do a better job than others in that department.

Bottom line is that as drivers, we must know how to handle spins, when to put two feet in, the surroundings of the track, where there is room, where it's soft, what the traffic is around us, and have situational awareness at all times. We must pre think what to do in certain situations so that when it happens, we act from a thought out plan, rather than panic or make incorrect assumptions.

I've been in lots of situations where I thought I was doomed, but wriggled out of it because I took the time to pre think scenarios, or I paid attention to the track surroundings on warm up and cool off laps, or I knew what traffic was behind me, or I felt a vibration or a coarseness in the steering that signaled a loose bearing, or I knew it was time to just suck it up and put two feet in..

[M491Cabriolet]

Regarding the GT3 roll bar--I may be wrong can can check the documentation--I believe the cars are delivered to end users with their roll bars only partially assembled, with the front cross members removed. The end users, should they decide to, can install these themselves. To me, this sounds like a classic loophole to get around DOT regulations. From my limited understanding, this is similar to the reason some manufacturers make 2+2 cars (to get around prohibitive insurance costs), even though the rear seats are nearly impossible to use for normal sized people. Just an idea...not definite...not sourced...

I would very much like to put roll bars into my cars; however, insurance companies don't seem to like roll bars (mine doesn't) because, I guess, it implies track use and aggressive driving.

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

I think the business of 2+2s being built to circumvent insurance regulations is a myth. As far as I know, Insurance rates are based on a whole lot of things other than number of seats, and I can't imagine that an industry so sophisticated about demographics would say, "911 Turbo = safe because it has 2+2 seats, Miata = dangerous because it only has two." Having written about cars for 30+ years, I have yet to find a manufacturer that would admit, even off the record, that the plus-two seats had anything to do with insurance rates. Typically, they explain that the existence of "back seats," even if unusable, makes buyers think the car has more potential utility than it actually does.

The insurance rates for our two-seat Boxster and our five-seat Volvo station wagon are virtually identical, since the cars are worth about the same and are about the same age.

[M491Cabriolet]

Urban legend. I've heard this since I was a kid. Thanks!

[Maxhouse97]

Reviving this post so I can close it out with what I decided on. Just read another post where you didn't find out what the person decided on - so here is what I decided on:

Safety Devices bolt-in bar with removable harness bar. Great fit and still have access to the back. Without the harness bar right behind the seats I feel much safer. Still need some padding on the upper portions though. Great product but a little more than I wanted to spend. $1k for the bar, and another $1k to install. Not a true bolt in though as bolt in plates needed to be welded in. $$

Still plan on track seats and harness for DEs - need to let the bank account recover some.

[Kevin Stewart]

The most important thing is getting a well built system, I have seen so much unsafe junk in cars it amazes me. I have even seen people on tv mounting seat belts wrong. If you are in doubht research it. And i have seen rollbars that were not even good for a trycycle. There are al kinds of people building cages and roll bars, and have no clue what they are doing. I kept on a freind about how his over the shoulder belts were mounted wrong he has had a couple wrecks and know he has had a few disk fused, was it because the belts were mounted wrong? Anyway properly installed system in a car is great. your neighbor that welds gas pipe is not a good candidate to put your system/cage in. Kevin