Need More CIS Help, Please

[scarceller]

If you are having issues with pressures I'd test the fuel delivery pressure, Fuel Pump pressure and delivery volume before adjusting the WUR. Maybe you already did this?

[Paulporsche]

Sal,

The FP measured out both last fall and this spring @ 4.85 bar/70 psi. The fuel delivery and spray patterns were pronounced OK by my mechanic.

[Porsche_monkey]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

Paul,

As I said many times to you, you are making a small problem into a research!!! You need to seal your air leaks and have a working WUR. We won't be here discussing a simple problem if your approach to problem solving is working. The fact that your CIS problem/s takes several months of discussions say something about your process.

That beloved WUR of yours is your Waterloo. The bi-metalic strip is not deflecting and will not be of any help to your problem. I'm becoming sarcastic and rude to you just to get your attention but I'm not getting any where. Please accept my apology. Just ask Wyvern. Good luck.

Tony

In Paul's defence:

a) It was a major job to find and repair his vacuum leak, but he did that. (A repair that few members here could or would do. He removed and repaired his intake system with the engine in the car.)

b) He sent his WUR to California for calibration (twice), it now appears that both times his supplier let him down, but that remains to be determined. Regardless, he has not stuck with a non-working WUR, he is simply trying to get one his many WUR's to supply the correct pressure.

In essence he is proceeding exactly as you suggest, but just not at a pace that seems to suit you perhaps?

[Paulporsche]

Porsche_Monkey,

Thank you. I appreciate your help and support.

Tony may be right. It may simply be a bad WUR c/w a bad supplier. Trouble is I don't know this until I test it. I can also have a parts seller tell me a WUR is good but I won't know THAT until I try it either.

Part of DIY is learning, experimenting, knowing it's done right etc. Part is also saving money. New WURs cost about a grand now. The UTCIS is about half that. Add about 20% for $CDN. It would be nice to get one of my existing ones to work w/o spending that kind of money.

Nobody knows how long and frustrating this has been more than me. Tony may not realize that all this represents only a few hours @ a time, over a few days last fall, followed by about 5 months of total inactivity on this, and now a few hours this spring.

[scarceller]

In my 75 911 I had all sorts of CIS issues, I bought a new WUR and problems solved.

Could you maybe borrow one from a known working car?

I know new ones are very expensive these days.

[Paulporsche]

Sal,

Cliff (Porschehead) offered one to me. I'm going to try a couple more things and if they don't work. I'll get his spare. If THAT doesn't work, then I'm off to Lourdes!

[Gunter]

This item from Fiji may help:



Or a sprinkle with holy water.

Waiting for the Eureka! before page 10.

[Paulporsche]

Thanks Gunter. Apparently He was a carpenter, though, not a mechanic!

Currently I'm praying for a known good 045 WUR to drop from the sky into my garage.

[Gunter]

Carpenter or Fisherman, I think he was better known to perform miracles.

Base to start from would be a very good battery, clean posts and ground, correct alternator/regulator output, wiring in good condiiton, all pins and connectors cleaned and lubed with dielectric grease.

It's virtually impossible that all those WURs were on the bad side especially since you also tried an adjustable one plus you have rebuild one that was bench-tested by expert rebuilders?

FD acting up? Pump getting tired? More vac leaks?

[Paulporsche]

Gunter,

I agree re the WURs. I'm thinking either I didn't have enough power for the WUR and pump to operate correctly or I have insufficient vacuum. I got the settings used by the rebuilder and was about to do another test including voltage @ the WUR and vacuum. I was also going to check power @ the thermoswitch because Tony had mentioned that a bad TS would net a CP about 1 bar low, which is what I was getting. I was about to hook up a vac gauge when another wrinkle manifest itself:

Last night, as the last act of my old battery, the fuel pump failed to start for yet another pressure test. This happened suddenly. After several tests working as it should, it just wouldn't anymore.

Today I installed a new one. The sensor plate switch was disconnected and the FP relay in place, just as I had done for all the previous tests. Again, the pump failed to start. All of a sudden, this new complication! I also couldn't get any power anymore @ the WUR connection.

I was able, however, to plug in the sensor plate switch, and the engine started and ran!

I disconnected the switch and again, the pump failed to run. Then, after reconnecting the switch, the engine refused to fire. The pump relay clicked when the key was turned but nothing happened. The pump relay, wiring, and fuse seemed fine. I tried several relays w/ no success.

I'm not entirely sure, but I thinnk the starter would crank when the switch was connected and the key turned to start position, but wouldn't turn when the switch was disconnected.

I put my battery tender on the new battery and began charging. After 3 hours the charging was still taking place.

I will have to check in the morning. I'm hoping the new battery was not fully charged. If that wasn't the cause, then I've got to go through the wiring and see what is wrong before I can do any more WUR testing.

[snbush67]

Originally Posted by Gunter

Carpenter or Fisherman, I think he was better known to perform miracles.

Base to start from would be a very good battery, clean posts and ground, correct alternator/regulator output, wiring in good condiiton, all pins and connectors cleaned and lubed with dielectric grease.

It's virtually impossible that all those WURs were on the bad side especially since you also tried an adjustable one plus you have rebuild one that was bench-tested by expert rebuilders?

FD acting up? Pump getting tired? More vac leaks?

+1 agreed 100%! From a previous post in another thread by Paul:

Originally Posted by snbush67

Are you sure this isn't his bigger problem? Isn't it possible that the lower voltage is keeping these instruments that generate heat to operate from accurately doing what they were designed to do? Everything at idle and start up depends upon temperatures that these instruments are detecting which in turn determine vacuum, fuel and air.

The low voltage should be addressed before moving on to the bigger problems.

Paul you should fix the electrical stuff, if you dont feel like it then just fix the electrical stuff, or if you think you should just fix the electrical stuff first, then bypass that and fix the electrical stuff. After your finished fixing the electrical stuff then fix the electrical stuff.

[Paulporsche]

I have no choice, really. There can be no further testing until this new electrical issue is resolved.

Then, I'm thinking a vacuum test, and checking out the thermovalve.

Then it's back to stevemfr's procedure.

[Gunter]

Sorry to hear that it's getting from bad to worse.
A Tender doesn't really charge a battery, a real Charger is needed.

Sounds like there are multiple electrical problems and any of the tests on various threads with multiple pages are meaningless and nobody learned anything from it.
Seems to me that some wiring might be getting tired and/or some connections are suspect.
How old is the pump?
How much current does it draw?

Here is a well-meaning reality-check:
If the rest of the engine and wiring are in the same condition as the dirty, grimy CIS and airbox shown in an earlier picture, it's time to do a major TLC overhaul and perhaps consider a new harness or at least replace some of the suspected wires.
Intermittent electrical problems are the most frustrating and need to be eliminated first.

You indicated that it ran fine for 15 years but you also don't really know many details of your engine other than it's not stock. We also don't know what was done to the wiring or anything else that may be different from stock.

Paul, please, spare us another series of lengthy threads going all over the map; overhaul your electrical system starting with Battery/Alternator and check wire-sizes and condition with the help of an electrical diagram.
And check the current-draw of suspected components.

Best wishes.

[Paulporsche]

Gunter,

Thanks for the "best wishes"

I don't think I would agree that the previous tests were invalid , because ALL the tests exhibited the exact same startup procedure until about a day and a half ago. That's when suddenly the fuel pump did not run. Last fall and this spring the pressure was always 70 psi. I'm not an engineer, but I don't think a procedure that is repeated multiple times, and then suddenly when an issue manifests itself that is then repeated can that issue be termed "intermittent".

Either way, I will be doing as you suggest. This elec problem has to be fixed before moving on.

BTW I'm still awaiting further info on my engine from the 2 sources I mentioned.

The FP was replaced but I'll have to check on when. I'll see if I can get the current draw. It hasn't blown the 25A fuse, however.

[Porsche_monkey]

I guess as an EE I need to help out on this issue now...

[Paulporsche]

Any help is welcome, even from simians and/or engineers. Even sarcastic ones

[Paulporsche]

BY JOVE, I THINK I"VE GAWT IT!

Looks a lot like success!

I've had my work done about 2 weeks ago, but I wanted to wait until I could verify my results. I think I've finally solved all my start/run problems.

Over the course of this long thread and process, I've done the following:

Tested and rejected 3 WURs after cleaning, reassembling and resetting them
Tested a 4th and had it cleaned and set twice. Finally reset it on the car w/ a FP gauge
Located and patched an emerging vacuum leak in the metal pipe to the AAR and AAV
Found an atmo line attached to the thermovalve. Replaced it w/ a vac line
Replaced several original vac hoses
Confirmed AAR, FD and WUR are correct for CIS system in place
Confirmed correct functioning of the AAR, AAV, TV, TTS, FD and injectors
Found and plugged an open vac port on the firewall side of the TB
Found and replaced a bad lead to the TTS
Confirmed a solid airbox
Confirmed a correctly functioning fuel pump
Cleaned all exposed CIS and "topside" parts (although maybe not to the standards of some)
Repaired the connector to the WUR; which broke during testing, by adding new female connections
Replaced the gaskets to the intake manifolds and the crankcase breather, and reset the oil sender w/ thread sealant
Removed and replaced the CIS system w/ the engine in the car
Drained about 1 qt from the tank to get lower than the previous "top of the 2 marks" amount

Today the engine fired right up @ 13C w/ a steady 2000 rpm idle. The engine pulled w/o popping during warmup strongly to 4000 rpm, and gradually settled to a steady 950 rpm. Once warm the engine pulled strongly to 6500 rpm and settled to a steady 950 rpm. There was a slight rev hang during a dropped throttle, confirming a proper decel valve function. There was no popping on accel, decel, or idle. There was no idle hunting. There was no dipping below and then returning to 950, signifying a not too rich mixture.

When I can, I'll verify my mixture w/ an LM-1 I can borrow from another Pelican. I'm planning on 3-3.5% per JW's recommendation, since the car is smog regulation exempt.

Thanks to the many Pelicans who followed this thread, offered advice (and sometimes sarcasm). Stevemfr, LJ, Ty, Ricks911S and others offered a wealth of info. I appreciated all comments, even if I've inadvertently failed to mention you here.

I now have a sweet running car. It seemed like a long haul, but the car actually sat idle from mid November until the first week of March. Also, as I said, just about everything was cleared up about 2 weeks ago, but I wanted to be sure of my results.

I particularly want to thank Tony and Gunter for their insightful, humorous but well meaning (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt) comments, and Mark87930 for the kind use of his gauges to someone he previously didn't even know from Bullwinkle. I also couldn't have done it w/o the capable efforts of the Porsche_Monkey who provided hours of his expertise and time to get this thing running right.

Now I'm going driving!

[Porsche_monkey]

Originally Posted by Paulporsche

Thanks to the many Pelicans who followed this thread, offered advice (and sometimes sarcasm).

Originally Posted by Paulporsche

I also couldn't have done it w/o the capable efforts of the Porsche_Monkey who provided hours of his expertise and time to get this thing running right.

Congratulations Paul. And thanks for mentioning me. Twice.

This was a real challenge, I think your car had a lot of issues that accumulated over the years. Kudos to you for sticking with it and resolving them without a real mechanic. Or a real mechanics bill.

[wswilburn]

Great job! You should be proud.

[boyt911sc]

Paul,

Nice to hear that your car is back running again. But you did not mention anything about your control and system pressures. Could you share this information to the rest of the readers? Thanks.

Tony