Such a thing as a simple rebuild?

mickey356 · 12-02-2009, 04:37 PM

I’m trying to figure out a budget for my car and have read and read and read. The problem is the more I read the more confused I get. I don’t think I’m unique in the world of “911 owners trying to figure out what to do”, but it seems everyone IS unique in what they are looking FOR.
Here’s my deal – I love my car. I drive it every day, and plan to for a long while. I don’t want more power (ok, not much more). And I don’t need it to be able to handle like a race car (ok, I like the idea of a good suspension). My confusion comes in where I don’t really have a comparison. I’m actually pretty happy with the performance as it is, but if I’m gonna spend some money to rebuild it why not make sure I’m not missing anything.
The starting point for me is this – a stock rebuild (top end unless I need to split it). Everything built to stock spec for an 83 SC US car, SSI’s and a new sport mufflet (2 in 1 out or GT3 style). I’ve read about 964 cams, 3.2 P&C’s, SW chips, etc….. and I don’t see where I’ll get the return for how and what I use it for, and that is street driving, spirited at times, but no DE or AX planned. As for the suspension – a strut brace and maybe new beefier sway bars.

I have Waynes books (101 projects and rebuilding) on the way.

The overall objective is reliability. I don’t want to sacrifice reliability for power in any way. If there are performance improvements that don’t sacrifice reliability out there what are they besides what I’ve listed? Is it possible to increase performance without sacrificing reliability? Could I and should I be looking for more?

Phil Blacklock · Phil Blacklock's Garage

Hi Mickey,
Reading between the lines I would say that you should stay with a stock rebuild.
Throw some money at the 356 instead.

WIL84911 · WIL84911's Garage

You'll probably get your answers from the books. Wayne provides suggestion choices (middle of engine book). We're the same. I use my car almost everyday. I have a stock rebuild with add on's. Good luck!

aigel · aigel's Garage

Do you need a rebuild? How many miles? What's wrong?

If you only are having a valve guide issue, the only thing on top of the SSI that I recommend is the 964 cam grind. Keep the rest stock. I would only mess with the pistons and cyliders if your leak down indicates an issue with the rings. If you keep it at this, your overhaul will be on the order of $2k in machine work to your heads (valve guides / valve job) and cam / rockers (grind).

George

mickey356 · 12-02-2009, 05:52 PM

I don't need a rebuild..........yet. Being that it's going to cost $3-$6K if not more, I'm going to start saving for the perverbial rainy day now and getting a game plan together.
So I'm trying to decide what, if anything, I should do that will not sacrifice reliability but possibly improve performance.
In all the reading I've done the one thing that is very evident is that you won't know what needs to be done until you're in there. I just don't want to put money where it won't pay me back. If I only get a bit more top end out of 964 cams (or my cams ground to 964) is it worth it? Will it cause undue stresses or problems for the engine? That kinda stuff is what I'd like to know. As I said, I really only use it for the street and as much as I like to drive the piss out of it, I only get to do that on occasion. I guess what I'm saying is that as nice as performance is it would likely be a waste of money on my car for how I use it.

Oh, and the 356 has already gotten it's share of work. It's a replica that I redid everything on last summer. It's got a 2005cc CB Performance Type I in it with 148hp. Very fun little car.

I'm looking forward to Waynes books.

I appreciate all the input, keep it coming.

aigel · aigel's Garage

The engine on my SC at around 150k miles appeared to have never been apart. It had developed several oil leaks and I pulled the engine to fix them. I replaced every seal I could get to without pulling cam towers or other major components off. I also installed oil fed tensioners at this time. What I did have to do was remove the cam end plate gaskets and rocker arms, as they were leaking. While I was in there I also found my cams pitted and went ahead and installed 964 grind cams. That really woke things up with SSI installed at the same time.

964 cams are mild - you can't run anything aggressive with the CIS. They give good low end power too, as a matter of fact. They are a good choice for the later SC engines or the euro engines which have the higher compression. Dynamic compression goes down with cams that have more overlap, so you want to make sure you don't put them on an 8.5:1 engine.

Sounds like you are just having fun reading up. I suggest you drive the car as is and only if you need to pull the engine anyway for other repairs (oil leaks, clutch) would I go put new cams. They are definitely worth every penny and the effort in my book ...

George

mickey356 · 10:05 PM

Thanks George. Yes, I am enjoying the reading up aspect but I'm also going in to the "gathering parts" mode.
I have an 83 SC with 160K on it (never been apart). It's starting to suck up some oil. I don't have a lot of "leaks" per se so that indicates to me that it's going out somewhere in the exhaust. Which means engine drop work sometime in the relatively near future. I'll drive the car as is until I actually need to do any major work and that may be a while, but I want to be ready when the time comes if not with the parts at least what I'll want done to it "while I'm in there".
I'm a little afraid of doing too much. I have a replica 356 and I've done (or had done) a lot of work to it. One of the frustrations with working on that car is parts and diagnosis. Whenever I need work or have questions someone will ask "What year is it?" to which I have to respond "Which part are you asking about?" The engine, trans, brakes, suspension, etc.... are all modified in some way or from various years of VW's so it's always an event trying to figure out what the problem is and what part is needed to fix it. My fears are if I start doing mods to my 911 as far as cams, pistons, etc.... I'll run into the same problem. If I have to take it in for work to be done will mods effect mixture settings, timing, etc... I guess what I'm saying is I won't be able to say "It's an 83 SC" anymore.
As much as I want to work on my car(s) I don't always have the time needed to do it right, or the space for that matter (I live in the city and have a very small garage that my wife uses for her car). So I want to avoid any confusion when it comes to R&R's etc....
All that said, if it's common to do mods like some of the above and it's not anything that'll "throw off" a qualified mechanic I'd consider doing some because it sounds like they (cams and SSI's) are going to give me just about the right amount of umph. And as I mentioned in my first post, I don't really have anything to compare to. I've driven a couple 911's but never in the way I drive mine so I can't say if a well tuned stock 3.0 will give me more than what I have. Again, reliability in the word of the day.

aigel · aigel's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickey356

All that said, if it's common to do mods like some of the above and it's not anything that'll "throw off" a qualified mechanic I'd consider doing some ...

Yes - a qualified mechanic will be able to handle it. The cams, if they ever need to be retimed say "964" on them. That will tell the mechanic how to time them. The mixture adjustment is done with an analyzer that doesn't care what cam is in there (you must however re-adjust the mixture after cam and ssi install). That's about it.

Good Luck!

George

craigyirush · 12-03-2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickey356

Thanks George. Yes, I am enjoying the reading up aspect but I'm also going in to the "gathering parts" mode.
I have an 83 SC with 160K on it (never been apart). It's starting to suck up some oil. I don't have a lot of "leaks" per se so that indicates to me that it's going out somewhere in the exhaust. Which means engine drop work sometime in the relatively near future. I'll drive the car as is until I actually need to do any major work and that may be a while, but I want to be ready when the time comes if not with the parts at least what I'll want done to it "while I'm in there".
I'm a little afraid of doing too much. I have a replica 356 and I've done (or had done) a lot of work to it. One of the frustrations with working on that car is parts and diagnosis. Whenever I need work or have questions someone will ask "What year is it?" to which I have to respond "Which part are you asking about?" The engine, trans, brakes, suspension, etc.... are all modified in some way or from various years of VW's so it's always an event trying to figure out what the problem is and what part is needed to fix it. My fears are if I start doing mods to my 911 as far as cams, pistons, etc.... I'll run into the same problem. If I have to take it in for work to be done will mods effect mixture settings, timing, etc... I guess what I'm saying is I won't be able to say "It's an 83 SC" anymore.
As much as I want to work on my car(s) I don't always have the time needed to do it right, or the space for that matter (I live in the city and have a very small garage that my wife uses for her car). So I want to avoid any confusion when it comes to R&R's etc....
All that said, if it's common to do mods like some of the above and it's not anything that'll "throw off" a qualified mechanic I'd consider doing some because it sounds like they (cams and SSI's) are going to give me just about the right amount of umph. And as I mentioned in my first post, I don't really have anything to compare to. I've driven a couple 911's but never in the way I drive mine so I can't say if a well tuned stock 3.0 will give me more than what I have. Again, reliability in the word of the day.

Just curious - how much oil is it sucking up?

mickey356 · 12-04-2009, 09:14 AM

About a qt every 600-700 miles.

DannyP · 12-04-2009, 10:31 AM

Mickey, just drive it! Go play with your Speedster! How ya doin', buddy?

mickey356 · 12-04-2009, 02:17 PM

Hey Danny!
I may have to dump that damn speedster to fund the SC. Then buy a Spyder when I have a place to stash it.

. But I do drive my SC everyday and as hard as conditions permit. Just trying think a bit down the road, that's all.
good to hear from you.

tharbert · tharbert's Garage

650 miles per quart doesn't sound to bad based on what I've read here.

wilke3169 · 12-04-2009, 03:27 PM

I rebuilt my '79 3.0 4.5 years ago. 9.5 J & Es, 964 cams, and SSIs. I have since put about 40,000 miles on it including about 15 track days. My car when Dynoed last year had 180 RWHP. Certainly no hotrod but fun just the same.

At the time of rebuild, I had a bent valve and the clutch fork was broken, so it just seemed like the right thing to do. I highly recommend doing the rebuild yourself. All of the guys here will walk you through the "impossible" problems.

Good Luck