First Engine Drop-it's out

[vancouver86/911]

I completed my first engine removal today. Didn't even break anything either. Amazing. What a great learning experience it was. For all you vets at this procedure I'm sure this is no big deal but what a great feeling once you get the engine on the ground and rolled out for the first time..as Colonel Kilgore so aptly stated in Apocalypse Now "Smells like... Victory!". If anyone is doing this for the first time I would say it is not for the weak of stomach and I would not dare try it alone on the first time (thanks to Chris817 for that advice). There is just too much to look for as the engine drops. As it was I had to stop the process in mid drop to undo a couple hoses that had been previously routed under engine parts from some other mechanic. The smartest thing I did all day was take some styrofoam and place it just under the transmission just in case I misjudged the balancing point of the engine trans combo. Good thing I did because it came out trans heavy and it landed on the styrofoam I had put down. That would have been a nightmare had it not been there. I used a second dolly and placed the trans on it and rolled the two of them out with no problem. Once out of the car it seemed to balance on just the engine dolly for some reason. If you build your own dolly make sure it is high enough to be able to get the centre of your jack almost all the way to the front of the dolly or the balance will be off, which is what happened to me. I have attached pictures of the process in case anyone wants to see them.
Now for the strange part. When I bought the car the previous owner stated he pushed the clutch in and it went straight to the floor. He did not have the funds, knowledge or desire to fix what he thought was a broken clutch cable so I figured I'd fix it myself. I got the car with absolutely no clutch cable pressure (Euro 915 trans). I changed the clutch cable and realized it was not broken. I found that the clutch release arm was stuck forward so I pushed it back and all of a sudden I had clutch cable pressure. I adjusted the clutch to specs, got great clutch pressure but the clutch just didn't seem to engage as the trans ground badly every time I tried to place it into a gear. Broken clutch fork right? That's what the consensus was on the forum from one of my previous posts. Well when I split the trans and engine today guess what...the fork is not broken. I haven't removed the pressure plate yet, I'm doing that tomorrow. Any thoughts from anyone?

[CT944]

Cool pix. Congrats and make sure to take plenty more pix!

[DUK]

Is the throwout bearing rubbing on the guide tube?

[jimbauman]

Wait a second... you're doing this in a carport in Vancouver??!! You're tough!!

JB

PS: I lived up there in the early 80's and did my fair share of engine swaps in the sleet too...

[vancouver86/911]

Duk,
Yes it appears that it is. There is grey grease on both parts smeared all over them. Advice or thoughts ?

Jim, it is not so bad..at least today it was above freezing.

[DUK]

Are you sure it's grease and not ground up alum and oil? I'm not certain on the difference on the guide tubes but hopefully some of the gurus will chime in.

[WIL84911]

Originally Posted by jimbauman

Wait a second... you're doing this in a carport in Vancouver??!! You're tough!!

JB

PS: I lived up there in the early 80's and did my fair share of engine swaps in the sleet too...

He looks young. I use to tinker with my beetle in subfreezing temps around his age. I can't even get to starting my valve adjustment in a heated garage now.

[french911]

I remember my overalls freezing to the ground when working under my 356 in Scotland. Now both me and my porkers stay inside for winter.

Barry

[dshepp806]

nice job!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gunter]

Hope you have the Bentley Manual; if not, get it!

The guide tube on the 915 is critical. Remove the 2 screws, remove the guide tube and check condition plus play with the new release bearing. The rubber O-ring in the guide tube for the input shafte is usually relaced. And there is also a seal for the input shaft that may need replacing.

The cross-shaft for the fork has to move absolutely free. Dismantle, check the bushings/bearings. If necessary replace bushings and use new seals.
Clean the fork and inspect for cracks. Some shops use a special fluid and light to detect fine stress-cracks.

Another reason for the clutch pedal to go to the floor is that the roll-pin on the pedal cluster breaks and makes clutch adjustments impossible.

Depending on age and Mileage, all parts mentioned including the clutch (Pressure plate, release bearing, disc, pilot bearing) may need replacing. A new clutch feels fantastic.
Flywheel may need a grind?

Use the Bentley; it's a must for doing serious work.

[Gunter]

Just to be clear:
Did you, or are you planning, to install a new pilot bearing? I HOPE SO!
Do you have the tool to center the disk before tightening the pressure plate?
Is this a complete new clutch like pressure plate, disc, release bearing?

If you have all new parts for the clutch designed for your year and type, they'll work provided you'll center the disc first and then gradually tighten the bolts for the pressure plate in sequence.

Are you going to replace the O-ring inside the guide tube?
Critical for the proper movement of the release bearing over the guide tube is not too much wear and reduction of diameter on the GT.

If the guide tube has too much slop, it needs to be replaced.
If the fork has too much wear on the part going in the groove on the release bearing, it may need replacing.

For measuring, I recommend a Vernier Caliper, they're pretty cheap now.
I recommend to observe all torque specs using a good calibrated torque wrench like a 3/8" and a 1/2" drive is needed to work on a 911.
As the pressure plate is tightened on the flywheel, it clamps the disc and changes the position of the release bearing somewhat. The fork in the groove moves the release bearing against the pressure plate when the clutch is actuated. Too much wear on the guide tube, and in the fork-horns positioned in the groove of the release bearing make a sloppy clutch.

It takes a lot of work to get to the clutch; you want to do it right.
Now is the time to check the parts and/or replace what's needed.

Do you have the Bentley Repair Manual?

[vancouver86/911]

Thanks for the reply Gunter.
I am planning on a total replacement of all clutch parts. I bought the car obviously to drive but also as a hobby to learn on. I have the correct clutch, pressure plate, release bearing, clutch fork now. I am just figuring out what else to replace while I'm at it. I am planning on replacing the guide and o-ring, pilot bearing and flywheel bolts as well. I have already replaced the helper spring and cable. I have a Bentley manual and have been using it as I go. I also have the 101 projects for a 911 and a Vernier tool too. When I reassemble everything I want to be sure I lube in the correct spots with the correct lube. Input would be appriciated here. I am also not sure what the problem was of why the clutch did not engage but it must have to do with the pressure plate issues I mentioned above. Maybe the clutch is stuck to the flywheel. I'll find that out today.

[Gunter]

Sounds good.
A new guide tube is $$ but worth it if the old one has too much wear.
Remove it and try it in the release bearing.
Also look at the fork; you don't want too much wear to make it sloppy.

Sounds like you're removing the flywheel. The bolts have a very shallow hex and it is important that the 12 mm - 12 point Allen is very sharp at the edges so it can bite into the hex. PP sells the tool or, Lordco or Napa has the 12 point Allen stub you can get and then just use a regular 12 mm 1/2" drive socket with a breaker bar to crack the bolts open. Before you do that, you'll need to lock the engine/flywheel. It can be done by buying the flywheel lock or, installing one of the bolts from the pressure plate in the flywheel and then using a regular wrench between that 1 bolt and one of the 4 remaning studs that hold the transmission to the engine.
Think about it, it'll come to you.

Coming back to the shallow hex in the flywheel bolts: I recommend that you grind the end of the 12 point Allen tool flush so it has no round ending. The point here is that the tool has to go into the shallow hex as deep as possible, bite and not slip out when applying torque.
The bolts are M10, I believe and need 66 ft-lbs, use Loctite and a 1/2"-drive torque wrench.

The centering tool for the disc is a regular plastic thingy also used by Ford Repair Shops, it's cheap to buy.
check the teeth on the ring gear.
Now maybe the time to do a little service on the starter, some cleaning and a little oil on the Solenoid plunger etc.
As for grease, follow the Bentley. On the guide tube for the release bearing and in the splines for the disc to move plus a little dab for the fork in the groove. I prefer Moly because it sticks but others may have............

Try and get a little oil into the bearings for the cross-shaft under the seals. Dismantling for this would be best but.................

Oh what fun.
The worst among many winter repairs I remember was in Northern BC and Quebec out in the open minus 40-50 C.
Thinking back occasionally: Did that really happen?

[vancouver86/911]

Well, I found my problem. Boy, did I ever! The clutch plate looks like it exploded. I hope I can save the flywheel. I ran my finger nail down it and it didn't seem too bad but it has a few ridges on it. No doubt these are from the rivets of the clutch plate.
Gunter, I only needed a breaker bar and a regular hex head and the pressure plate bolts came right off without needing a flywheel locking tool.
I took some pictures of this process as I went along. For the vets, this is nothing new but I hope these pics can benefit some new 911 owners starting out as I am. As always, comments are most welcome.
ps, thanks Gunter.

[Walter_Middie]

Look carefully at the BACK of the clutch fork, that's where they'll break. On your last picture, the top fork looks like it's cracked. Is that just a shadow? Or is it broken?

[vancouver86/911]

Walter, that is just a shadow. Regardless, I'm planning on changing the fork anyway since I bought one and it is accessible now.

[Gunter]

We are talking about different bolts here.
You mention the bolts for the pressure plate (Regular Allen, no problem) but I was talking about the bolts on the flywheel/crankshaft. These are stretch bolts and are normally used only one time. I have at times just re-used the old bolts for street-use but wouldn't do it if it was for high performance or racing.
It's up to you if you want to get new ones.

The flywheel bolts are usually 12 mm - 12 point, not just 6 point. The right tool will prevent damaging the heads. Remember to grind it flush so it can bite! 66ft-lbs for M10 with Loctite.
You will need to lock up when you torque the new flywheel-bolts and NEVER turn the engine ccw!

Grinding the flywheel is no big deal if it has never been done. Weissach can tell you where to go for this. At that time consider changing the main seal behind the flywheel if there is evidence of it leaking.

Most likely what happened was that the car was sitting for a long time and the disc rusted on to the flywheel and when the pedal was depressed, the disc lining came apart.

[OldTee]

Pull your flywheel and have it refaced at a machine shop. Not expensive. Replace the bolts with new ones. They are not expensive either.

[vancouver86/911]

I inserted my triple square socket into the flywheel bolts and was astounded at how shallow they are. I Maguiver'd a flywheel locking tool out of a piece of steel I had laying around. I took Gunter's advice and ground the head of the triple square socket and used a long 1/2" breaker bar, took a deap breath, a sip of beer and went for it. All the flywheel bolts cracked open no problem. What a huge relief. I had to use a flat screw driver to gently pry the flywheel off but it came off no problem too. Once the flywheel was off I saw that who ever was in there before sealed the hell out of the flywheel seal. It and the transmission side are both drier than a popcorn fart so I might just leave both of them alone. Any liquid seen in the picture is just WD40. I am definitely getting new flywheel bolts. What colour Locktite am I supposed to use on the flywheel bolts when I replace them? Do I coat the entire length of the threads?
Also, now that I have the transmission out is possible to visually inspect the syncros and gear teeth through the transmission cover? I'm going to replace the trans oil with Swepco 201 and I was thinking of straining the oil that is already in there through some sort of strainer as it comes out to see if any metal parts gets caught.

[Gunter]

Wow, this is not how the main seal should look.
Somebody patched it with some goo and I wouldn't trust it.
Did this really run for a while without leaking?
How old is this seal?
What's the Mileage?
A new seal is not that expensive and fairly easy to install, evenly all around and flush with the case. Up to you.

915 has no screen, just a magnetic plug on the bottom with the infamous shallow hex. Same rules apply: 17 mm 1/2"-drive socket with a breaker bar. A 17 mm L-shaped Allen will NOT work. Cut a piece off the L and use it in a 17mm socket. Grind the end flush for a good bite.
Spray some penetrating oil on the threads and crack it open; they're usually tight.

No, you cannot see anything indicating condition of syncros etc. Only driving/shifting will show that. 1st to 2nd usually gives out first needing to come for a full stop for 1st and feeling a little crunch going into 2nd.
Until you know what's what, I suggest to use regular ear oil. One of the experts on 915's, John Walker in Seattle, uses GL5 80/90 gear oil and swears by it. I am running the same with an additive for LSD.

If you found some oil in the tunnel where the coupler is you might consider changing the seal for the shift-shaft in the 915. Easy to do with the transmission out.