Tips on installing new carpet?
 

I'm re-doing the interior of my 911 hotrod. I decided to be a little different and went with light gray German squareweave. Tony at Autobahn is a Master craftsman and the carpets are stunning!
The interior is stripped with NO backseat. I would like to install some type of sound deadening before carpet goes in. I'm having some hearing problems (400+ Grateful Dead shows) and would like to keep the engine sounds outside of the car, not inside. Any suggestions....Dynomat, B-Quiet, lizard skin etc?
Any tips on installation? What type of glue....3M? Certainly don't want to mess these beauties up!

Thanks for any help!

i use secondskin products and i am happy with the results. they have a few that can aide in your application but how many is up to you. for starters, and at a minimum, get some of this:

Damplifier Pro - Acoustic Vibration Dampening Mat


that is a vibration damper and it will do a lot to stop noise. use it on all large (or medium) flat metal surfaces like the floor pan, rear parcel shelf, rear seats, doors, etc. it has it's own adhesive so no extra glue is required.

the next step you can go one of two ways depending on what you want to spend and how much you want to work. full out would be some ll and heatwave but you can use one or the other and get good results.

Luxury Liner - Acoustic Noise Barrier and Insulation Barrier

Heat Wave - Acoustic Thermal Insulation and Engine Insulation Material

if only using one of the above you can go with the pro version (thicker) but if using both it will be too thick if both are pro.

you can see how i did the doors and the rear parcel shelf in the thread below. i will be doing more of the interior in the spring.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/495273-new-audio-install.html



as far as installing the carpet... well the only real tip i have found in searching here would be to lay out the old in pattern and then put the new on top of it. you won't mix up pieces and you will know exactly where everything goes. i would use some 3m super90 glue. normally i use the 77 but from what i have seen you need some pretty strong bonds on certain carpet connections so go with the 90, but be sure to follow the directions.

Thanks!
Second skin looks like quality stuff. I'll get a sample of it and compare it to Dynamat. I don't want to get to thick on the underlayment or the carpet won't fit right.
That's quite a stereo install thread you did! Very nice.

Thanks again for the info.

Anyone else got any tips?

Just did another search using more specific wordage! Found some informative threads.

Thanks

from RKT

+1, and 9ball thanks for the sound equipment links, good to know where to get quality stuff.

Take care,

O-

my pleasure. if you or anyone else has any audio-related questions feel free to pm me.

If you have a heat gun, use that because some spots take a lot of pulling and stretching and the heat gun makes the carpet more pliable and easier to work with. A hair dryer will work as well.
Glue: 3M for sure, but be carefull with the real sticky stuff, because sometimes you will need to remove the carpet real fast due to it not being in the right spot.
Very sharp razor blade and scissors.
A very large/ long socket which I found to work awesome when pushing the carpet into tight areas. It also works great in smoothing the carpet in places as it slides very easily over the carpet.
I piece of cardboard which is used to block over-spray when you have to spray the adhesive in certain parts of the car.
A hand cleaner to clean hands during the job as you will get glue on them and you don't want to transfer glue on new carpet pieces.
Search RS carpet install as there are some great threads on installing carpet sets, and even though you are not installing that type, the process is kind of the same.

Thanks tobluforu. I've got to get the sound deadening ordered and do the install. Staring at the carpet in the box is cool, but I wanna see it IN THE CAR!

I did both Damplifier and Luxury, I figured I would regret not adding the extra protection later. I am happy with both products.

Here is pic before the Luxury...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263202947.jpg

I've been reading many of these posts about using vibration damping material and I've had a nagging question - has anyone definitively seen significant noise reduction using Constrained Layer Damping material such as Damplifier? The reason I ask is that I've had a fair amount of experience over the years trying to design damping into military airborne electronics in an effort to reduce vibrations. I looked hard at CLD materials and learned that it is VERY difficult to design CLD into your particular structure and actually get results. The problem is that CLD is not only dependent on the size, thickness and material of your damping sheet, your particular panel and the adhesive layer, but the viscoelastic properties of the adhesive layer also make the problem dependent on temperature and the frequency you are attempting to dampen. So in my experience simply slapping some CLD material on a panel is very hit-and-miss.

Porsche Head,

Did you finish with the Luxury Liner install and have you taken it for a drive yet? If not, please report back if you notice any decrease in noise levels from the back of the car...

Thanks.

Doug

You've made some good points in your post and I'm sure you know what you're talking about but...

I've used Dynamat in both of my cars and it definitely makes a difference.
Having said that I haven't tested it with a sound level device so I have no idea how effective it really is.

Our cars are getting old and often the OEM sound deadening felts/mats are rotten or past their best.
When I stripped my car the felts/mats had deteriorated so bad that I didn't really have any other options.

Also... I think it's easier and neater to use something like this rather than glue and old fashioned felt.

doug

damplifier, damp pro, dynamat and similar cld products are vibration dampers not noise blockers. their job is to reduce vibration in large sheets of metal, and while most quality products achieve this goal the end user hears less noise and thinks that they are blocking noise as well. most people, like cliff and myself, were misinformed over the years as to it's intended use and application methods. in one of my cars i applied dynamat xtreme just as he did.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...s/000_3732.jpg

in reality you only need to cover the panels that will resonate from road vibrations instead of a layer over everything. that really comes down to just the large, flat areas of metal. places that have bends or a pattern, if you will, of raised portions, will not have the same acoustical qualities and can be left on their own. a perfect example of this is a modern trunklid. here is a shot of the one i did for example.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...s/000_3714.jpg

i covered the entire lid when all i really needed to do would be the triangle shaped parts. the green arrows below are what needed to be covered and the red arrows point to what would have been fine on it's own.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...s/trunklid.jpg

i have spoken with the guys at SSA as well as a few other companies and they really seem to know their stuff. their products were designed to be used in a car, and if applied properly they do their job well. if noise reduction is your final goal you can't simply just slap some cld and call it a day as that is not the purpose of cld. you really need to add something on top of it like luxury liner or heatwave. these are the items that need to be a blanket if you will and cover everything, including having their seams sealed. these are the noise blockers/absorbers and when applied correctly really do their job well. one without the other will work to a point but when used in conjustion they really perform well.

of course if you want to go all out you can get some lead sheets as they will block external noise the best but they also weigh a ton.

I do have one concern.....the thickness of whatever product I end up using may affect how the carpet lays down and fits. If I use two layers of deadening before the carpet, the carpet may not fit like it's suppose to. The carpet is cut and bound already.

that is why i suggested that if using 2 materials you do not get the "pro" version. i spoke with ssa and they have had a lot of 911-related questions. their best solution would be to use damplifier and then heatwave on the rear seats and then damp/luxury liner on the floors. the heatwave is not as good as the luxury liner at reducing/absorbing noise but it is better at dealing with heat.

i recently did the rear parcel shelf and upper seat backs with damp pro and some closed cell foam i had left over. the foam was not the best solution to my "problem" but i had some on hand and didn't want to throw it out. once both were installed i had no problems putting the parcel shelf cover back on. since this area will see the most "noise" from the engine and has lots of flat metal area i covered the whole thing.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...o/100_4881.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...o/100_4884.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...o/100_4885.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...o/100_4886.jpg

this is the factory piece i removed and then reinstalled with no problems. it is the thick rubber with a thick insulation-like material under. the insulation can easily be compressed so it was not a problem.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...o/100_4887.jpg

Kurt (KNS),

sorry the car went back on the lift for a big brake kit, steering rebuild etc. so it has not seen any road time. I can tell you this, I ran the car while on stands and it was noticeably better. If you knock on the panels from the inside it is a dead sound vs. a solid think so I am very anxious to do a road test when I am done.

It may seem like overkill to do both Damplifier and Luxury but my car was load with the dual out Dansk. The extra weight (~20 lbs total) will be offset by my CF hoof and new Braille battery, beside I have a Rotrex supercharger also waiting to go in. I don't want to do all of that then realize I needed to pull the carpet. I was going to go full lightweight like some of the folks here but after driving it around for a while without any dampening or carpet I was done with that, I wanted a slightly more modern upgrade feel.

I promise I will do some inside recordings when I am back on the road even if only for future Pelican folks because I think it important to think out exactly what you are looking for in your ride and customize it to-wards that.

Cliff

I also have a dual-out Dansk. It sounds GREAT, but with no engine compartment insulation and nothing inside the car (yet) in sounds like I'm inside a snare drum! With my bad hearing, it actually hurts!
Heat has not been a big factor even with my car not having A/C. The noise is #1 concern. So....I would be more inclined to want to stop vibrations>noise than insulate for heat.

A tip for glue: yes the 3M spray stuff is great for the majority but pick up some brush-on contact cement for trickier/stubborn places where you really need a good stick.

When I installed my RS carpet I installed foam like material that someone on this board recommended. It is very light weight, comes in different thicknesses and is used to deaden sound in airplanes. It was pretty cheap, and one side has adhesive. I'm actually pretty impressed at how much it deadens the sound. I drove my car without any carpet and the asphalt in the rear, and it was pretty unbearable with a 2 out M&K muffler. Now its even quieter then having the stock carpet, and the RS carpet is much thinner then the stock one so this stuff works pretty damn well. Now if I could only remember what it's called, but if you search out the rs carpet installs, it's in one of the threads.

I have to agree, as I used it in a few places and it too works great.

400 Shows. Hell yeah. My wife makes fun of me for both the love of my P car and my love of the boys. Good luck with the sound Deadening.

not sure of the individual brand names but most likely it was an ensolite-based product.

Found it...
SUPER SOUND PROOF WITH ADHESIVE from Aircraft Spruce

Wow, this stuff sounds interesting. What thickness did you use?

Nineball.....Ever use this, is it comparable to what you use now?

You guys are a great source of info.
Thanks to all!

Actually lost count at around 400! Still got ticket stubs for most of them. Me and my girlfriend followed them from town to town in a 66 VW bus back in the late 60s - 70s. Different world then. Still listen to them on XM and Dicks Picks....just not as much VOLUME!

i have never used that before but it is a closed cell foam product. everything i have ever read says that open cell foam is much better for blocking unwanted noise. i read their installation pdf and it calls for a minimum of 2" of their product which is somewhat easy to do in an airplane but it would make it practically impossible in a car. i am not saying it doesn't do the job but it just goes against everything i have ever read on the subject. i am by no means an expert, this is just a field that is related to my 20+ year hobby.


i just realized what you guys were talking about (400 shows). spent the summers of 92-95 on the road myself including my last show ever at 3 rivers stadium. rusted root opened and at the time i had never heard of them but it was a nice little extra treat. before that is was just whenever i could afford the time off from work.

Not trying to contradict you nineball but didn't someone post on one of the other "noise elimination" threads that Porsche is using a closed cell type of insulation under the carpets in the newer 911s?

could be :) like i said i am no expert i am just going off of what i have read over the years.

I've learned a lot reading everyone's posts regarding noise/sound reduction (nineballs included). I think the older 911s can certainly be made quieter but they will always be a noisier beast compared to newer cars.

I used 3 different thicknesses, but should have just used one due to the sizes it came in, roll wise. I had to piece together some of it because the dif. size rolls did not provide enough coverage. The thickest I used was 3\4 inch and by no means did this stuff make my car sound proof as that wasn't what I was after. Since the RS carpet is pretty thin, I wanted the carpet to have a somewhat smooth surface for it to lie on, and this provided that along with some sound deadening. Also, I only used it on the rear.

i could be totally wrong with the info i have, it has been known to happen once or twice in my lifetime :) i sent an email to ssa asking them to explain the differences and benefits of ccf vs ocf. i'll post up what ant (owner) tells me.

Just to make it a little more clear....I don't want to turn the 911 into a Lexus, just "Deaden" the vibrations/noise coming from the rear. I removed the radio & speakers so insulating it for optimum tunes is not a factor.

well... to do it right it is at least a 2 stage solution. you need something like dynamat xtreme or damplifier / damp pro to stop the metal panels from vibrating and causing excess noise, but those products are not designed to block noise. you need something else for that. my suggestion to you would be to go with a butyl-based product like those mentioned above first and see how you like the results. if you are happy with the results then you can stop there. if not then proceed to the next step.

I used Quiet Coat after cleaning all the old sound deadening off. It turned out good with no problem installing the carpet. Its a brush on or spray on liquid.
Its been 2 years with no problems.

well i know why this is a hobby and not a career for me :) turns out i was wrong and closed cell is better for reflecting sound, open cell is better at absorbing. you really do learn something new every day. here is the response i got from the owner of ssa.

Closed cell foam is better for blocking out noise, but open celled foam is better for dissipating noise. Many engineers will debate this issue as it is frequency dependant. Personally, the only time foam should be used in a car is if it is a gasket material or if it is being used as a decoupler with a mass loaded vinyl.

Foam by itself is a terrible material to reduce noise. It hardly does anything unless it is applied very thick. In a car, you can not apply it very thick so the results are very small. This is why the mass loaded vinyl is so much better. The mass that comes along with it is huge, so the results are much better.

For your car, the Luxury Liner Pro would be the best product to apply on top of the Damplifier Pro. The results will be amazing!

The foam on Lux Liner and LLP have more to do with the decoupling effect (raising and separating of the materials) than noise reduction. The foam elevates the vinyl off the panel which helps slow the sound down so the vinyl can block it. Foams by them selves (unless very thick) are pretty much a waste for blocking noise.. Well, low frequency noise any way. Upper range it works well but in a car there is very little of that.

Well, I *just* finished a little sound reduction project on my own 1980 SC. My plan was to remove the old sound mat on the interior behind the seats and replace with something new and more modern. I also wanted to check the parcel shelf area as this is a known area for rust. I didn't want to go beyond that, my carpet is in decent shape and I didn't want to rip that out at this time.

I met with the owner of Second Skin Audio (they're here in Phoenix) and he recommended Damplifier Pro with Luxury Liner Pro over that. This provided me with nearly the exact thickness as the original mat. The nice thing is that Damp Pro is now in a flat black finish so it doesn't look like you are constructing a moon lander. Sorry I did not take pictures as jhubs, nineball and others here have documented this all pretty well.

Good news - no rust back there. I did not weigh the pieces coming out and going in but the new stuff together is similar in weight if not a bit lighter. I ditched my (shot) rear speakers so I saved several pounds there.

After hitting the road with a careful ear I did not find a huge reduction in sound. It was small but as someone else mentioned, you may hear some of the other sounds a little bit better.

My next project was to replace the engine compartment sound mat. Mine was 30 years old but largely intact with some sags and unsightly. I used the new OEM lightweight pad. The install wasn't as bad as some people make it out to be for a CIS car. A four inch engine drop gave me the room I needed.

I hit the road again. Another *small* reduction in sound. Not what I was hoping for. My goal was to get nearly as quiet as my 1984 Carrera, there really is a noticeable difference between those two cars.

My car is a little bit quieter now but not enough for my wife to notice. The plus side is a tidier engine bay. I may try some Damplifier Pro in the doors, many have said that that does help with road noise.

Sorry for the long post and semi- hijack of this thread. I figure people doing interior work could make some use of it.

the doors would be good to do but i think you would achieve better results by taking up the carpeting and doing the floorpan and rear seats completely. i did the same area as you (see above pics) and the doors and really did not notice a large change in sound level even with putting the factory piece back on top of the newly covered parcel shelf. in the spring i plan on using damp pro and some llp over the floor and rear seats which should do quite a bit of reduction.

nineball,

I think the next thing I'll try is the doors and perhaps the floor. The rear seat bottom material looks to be the same as the parcel shelf padding and that old stuff was doing pretty well compared to what I just put in. I would like to know what changes they made to sound insulation (and where) in the 3.2 Carrera.

Kurt,
Your experience in 'small' sound reductions is what I would suspect. Based on my experience with vibration damping, I would really be suspect of CLD approaches. I understand CLD is not a noise absorber and it's sole purpose is to reduce panel vibrations and the resulting structural noise, such as 'drumming'. But as I described, it really is an engineered solution dependent on many variables. My opinion is that simply buying sheets of it and slapping it on various size panels will be hit-and-miss. Not to mention the cost! On the other hand, I can see the value in some of the noise absorbing mats discussed here.
I'm interested in this topic, and people's results, as I'm in the middle of restoring my 71T and I've been debating whether to put something new underneath my new carpets I will be installing.

I would tap each panel - if it sounds dead ---> no CLD there.

Otherwise, I would add a CLD material to the middle of the panel & continue towards the edge until I had covered 20-30% of the panel. test by tapping as you go.

Then add a layer of foam, felt or some more exotic material over the whole panel.

But FIRST, I'd seal any holes and fill any crevices with a ceramic micro-bead "liquid goop" material.

Anything that when magnified might resemble an old timey "horn" loudspeaker should be addressed. Is it obvious why?

Pretend you are an ant.