Changing brake fluid (why not all makes?)

[Decolliber]

We all know to change the brake fluid in our 911s, and I know Audi recommends it every 4 years too. Looking through the maintenance schedule for my wife's 97 Ford Escort, I was surprised to see that there is no recommendation to _ever_ change the brake fluid, and the dealer confirmed this. Seems to me if changing fluid is good for one make, it should be good for all. Why would Ford (and I assume other down market brands) not recommend brake fluid flushes?

[KTL]

How many worthwhile 88 Fords (not including trucks as they seem to last a little better) are there on the road right now? I mean, seriously, I see some big time pieces of crap of that vintage on the road today. Maybe Ford thinks the car will be scrap by the time the brake fluid becomes an issue? Good question. I flushed the fluid on my 92 Eclipse this spring and it was quite dirty (probably original). People ask, why do that? Why not?

[cds72911]

I do not know why other makes don't recommend it (I thought they did, but people just ignored it). Brake fluid is hygroscopic (it absorbs water) and it is going to end up with a lower boiling point and probably some corrosion on the metal parts. I can't even imagine why they wouldn't reccommend it...

Charlie
(haven't changed the brake fluid in my '99 F-150 or wife's '97 Jetta since purchased...)

[Nickshu]

All brake fluid should be changed at a regular interval. Its just that noone does it!

Brake fluid absorbs H2O and that = rust!

Thats why parking brakes freeze on and calipers sieze!

I do mine in all my cars about every 1.5 years.
4 jackstands and a pressure bleeder, takes about 30 minutes per car. Dont even have to remove the wheels...just go from the inside! Napa sells large containers of DOT4 fluid for cheap. I run ATE Super Blue in the 911 though.

Nick.

[Rod Walter]

I agree with Nick et al. Perhaps Porsche and Audi specifically recommend changing the fluid because, as German firms, they know that their cars are much more likely to be pushed to the margins of the car's braking capabilities on the autobahn. There is much more of a safety factor on U.S. 70 mph interstates.

Still, I would change the brake fluid even on the Escort especially if I thought that I would keep it for a long time. Which begs the question, "Why would you want to keep an Escort for a long time?"

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

In germany the intervall time to change brake fluid is every 4 years yet the TÜV has a fluid messure device to test the
boil point and if your fluid is to contaminatet you have to fix that.

The reason is that some mechanics ( or the company they work for ) just sucked the canister clean and then renewed the fluid yet the boiling point in the canister was very high while the old dirt with boiling point at 120°C was still in the calipers.
So the TÜV checks controls worked quality even if the owner was betrayed ( fooled ) without his knowledge.

Why american car manufactorers don´t think about changing fluid are following:

They want to sale new cars and a airbag is cheaper then a good brake system yet it is easer to sale as saefty device. But the fact is that when you brake down from 100 mph with a typical US marked car and a typical german marked car the US car will hit the german marked car with some 30 mph and you will need new airbags and can sale two new cars or the repair from them.
Yet it was the drivers foult and you know what i mean

OK thats why the US has speed limits, you know speed kills.
I always woundered why US cars don´t use the old non hydraulic systems ? Fail safer and good enough for city cruising.

Changing brakefluid for a car built to exist maybe 3 years doesn´t make sens and it will rise the runing costs for the owner.

On the other side changing brake fluid is good money for a service station but not as good as a oil change.

Grüsse

[cary]

The last person on the face of the earth I would ask about brakes is Ford marketing person or engineer.
I have two Ford products. A 99 Expedition and a 95
Aerostar. THEIR BRAKES SUCK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Aerostar get new pads and rotors every 20k. Fluid every 24 months.

All brakes are measured against the brakes in my Porsche. Nothing comes close. The Porsche is 20 years older than both of those.

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

There is much more of a safety factor on U.S. 70 mph interstates.

What saefty ? OK if everyone has bad brakes the cars will not rear end ech other but the clllison speed is still higher even from 10 mph. Just imagen you run against a child and could have sfed that situation with better brakes then rather with a airbag that protects you.

American drivers are brainwashed and think high speed is a killer but on the US highways more people die or get injuried then on german highways ( Correct relation to transportkilometers ).

OK german goverment says this is fundet on the high maintance level due TÜV and the propper maintained roads. They calculatet to lower the kill rate about 20% if they go to a 75/mph general speed limit. And I think this will come in the future.
Others claim that banig poor designed cars like SUV plus the heavy trucks to the right side from the highways would lower the rate by 50% or copy the swiss model ( similar drop ).

A other observation is that when the US forces moved out the accident rate droped, but then rised again due the now coming visitors from the east. Some drove like they stole the cars

Grüsse

[Rod Walter]

Roland, I completely agree that the German autobahn system is safer than the U.S. interstate system. I certainly didn't mean to imply the opposite.

What I meant by a greater safety factor was that a brake system wouldn't be pushed as close to its limits on highways where the speeds are, on the average, lower (in the U.S.). So I speculated that U.S. manufacturers aren't as concerned about the declining boiling point of brake fluid over time because it would be a rare event in which an American driver ever used the brakes sufficiently to boil the fluid.

Grüsse

Well regardless of brand the fluid should be tested and replaced on a regular basis.
There are several types of testers from dip strips to ones that boil the fluid. At work during every schedualed PM any vehicle with hydraulic brakes gets tested and the boiling point is recorded. We hapen to use the boiling type very easy to use (stupid proof).
Hey Roland you folks ever figure out how to drive in the fog without totaling several hundred vehicles at a time?

[SRT356/911]

Why Roland and the fog? This is the time of year in the Central Valley of california that we get the pile ups from fog. How many accidents are attributable to brakes not working correctly from corroded brake parts. Throw in some snow and a sticking right caliper and a kid crossing the road and what do you have?
Some people never change their brake fluid. I think ABS cars should be done yearly. Most track cars get it done several times a year and it is dark when it comes out.
Use a turkey baster and suck it all out of the master cylinder resevoir and refill before flushing.

[Roland Kunz]

Hello


I´m not sure if the Autobahn is the best system.

If I was in the US i didn´t feel unsecure about the streets, only funny thing was to leave the highway on the left lane................

My biggest problem was adjusting to the behavoiur from other drivers and the creep speed from 55 when you are in the middle from nowhere and the landscape didn´t change for hours
The point is that saefty is a part of your own thinking and aktive driving 8 call it speeding ) is a higher "saefty" level then the passive Rolling used in some Staates. When you need the same time to cross one staate like you used to need to cross europe

But it is all the driver. In germany some drivers are egoistic and cut others safety becourse they need to speed. They use speed to compensate personal problems and see the last wild resort by buying a fast car and speed around without any rational reason.
You guys hand the money to a riflle dealer or the psyche doc in germany the same money gets turned into fast machines.
Well you can say the german highway is the church of Freedom for some priests in a very restrictet area. A last resort where you are on yourself and control things yourself.

In the staates some drivers are "egoistic" becourse they drive a 3 ton tank and don´t care if they roll over something. Most uS drivers will not need speed to compensate own shortcomings but would like to driver faster as it would shorten the wastet time on the road.

The american way of drive is more relaxed but would have big problems with the "individual" traffic in germany.

I think thats maybe to generalized but it will somehow hit it.

But generaly there are to much @ssholes on the roads worldwide.

Now the thing with the brake system is that german drivers can drive faster and therefore use brakes from higher speed levels where resrves get eaten up. So the drivers has his own feeling plus the comparsion what other cars are cappable of ( Well if you are close to rearend cars all the time you have to change your driving style or get a car with average or better brakes ).

So there is a other marked for brake technology.

And the other thing is that german highways are not desperate like a drag strip to test out the car. You have to live with the traffic. To gain high averge speeds you must make speed whenever possible.
You need a specific drivestyle that move other people to the right.
As using the flash light, the turn signal or driving up close is not allowed and overtaking on the right side is only allowed under 60 mph you must adopt a "definitive" drive style. The driver in front of you looking in the mirror should see and should can "calculate" you. he then his to calculate if he has enough space to move to the right side or not. Its up on him but if he sees your car is a fast car by how fast you approach in the mirror and he also realize it is a sportscar he knows that the time you need to overtake him is shorter then with a car in his similar class. But we have small class cars witch will play with the fast guys and they must also use the fast approch way to show there capabilitys.
So fast approach is something like you stay on your speed untill the frontman has made the desicion to move or not. It´s up on him. If you brake to soon you loose to much speed and the overtaking will take longer and if you brake too late you risk a big ticket. Thats a reason for very good brakes.
If you look at german beetles you will find normal looking cars with 150+ HP engines and massive working brake systems.
This car will work even if people know beetles a slow 34 HP creepers the fast approch will move like a big BMW or other potentinal car.
Other factor is the symphatyfactor. Many people just like good looking cars and will let a Porsche pass just to have a look at the nice rearend. ( Hey you now understand why the backside from a car must look better the the frontend ? )

Now in the US the driving behaviour is different and well if american drive style hits with german drive style two worlds collide. Just like a polo player team has to compete against a golf player team. Both play on the green and need a good eye and coordination to hit the ball and send it to a gaol.

Now foog driving:

Foog driving is realtet onto people following the frontman like sheeps and on the other side have not enough own critics or can stand for there own correct speed. Its a group beavoiur and in the fog the weakest link will start a chain reaction.

In germany we have some fog holes ( Ok we are not in UK with is said to be THE fog hole ) and you just rush into them.

Fog accidents normaly ocur while the morning rush hour when everyone is short on time and the traffic is thick like in your rushhour. They are not direct speed relatet accidents yet the speed was still to high for the actuall visibilty.

And the worst fog accident was when a truck overuned some 50 standing car´s as the truck driver maybe had been in fullsleep.
( I think such things will never happen in the US )
Normaly a fog accident is just dentet cars and shocked people ( who maybe learn from that )

Thats it we all think we are the best and the champions and never will have the same problems and so noone is thinking about it an analyze. The rule is german drivers are grazy speedfreaks and need big brakes like others need big balls to compensate the not existing brake system on there slow daily creeper cars. They will not stand at the dealer and ask how fast the car stop or send the car to the reapairfacility if something in the brake changed or feels different. Those guys on the other side will freak out if the car don´t have cup holders or the creature comfort isn´t lulling in like a baby chair.
Those people are worldwide and known as the big consumer mass. They like to buy a car and drive it up untill they get a new one. No need for maintaince or other things. Just pour in gas and hit the pedals to have fun. Don´t think about what you do and know the risks relatet to it and if risks show up then buy the car witch looks like the lowest risk in life . If you have to decide between a airbag or good brakes then sure you take the airbag so you don´t have to bukle up to lower your own risk and if your bad brakes will bring you in a accident you can sleep in the bags or sue someone for making a misstake.

A Porsche with a cupholder is a consumer orientatet car and was only possible after Dr. Porsche passed out of life. maybe he had seen the plans for the new consumer cars and decided not to appier beside that car and smile into the cameras and tell the consumer that he now will lick there asses as well as money is the thing that makes his world go round as well.

Sorry off topic

Grüsse

Grüsse