Building a 20 year tribute to the '67 911R from an '87 Carrera..need your input
 

No, not looking to to build a SWB '67 911R clone out of an '87...rather modifying an '87 in the general spirit of that iconic predecessor to the longhood S. Its time turn my attention to my faithful "plain jane" former daily driven 87 Carrera now that its relegated to a weekend toy.

The car is mechanically sound with a fresh top end, clutch, sensors, lines about 10K miles ago. Total mileage 155K. Interior OK but not pristine. Never in an accident but the paint has taken on a patina and has had some minor paint touch ups along the way for door dings/chips etc. While people tout how valuable the G50 cars have or will become, mine ain't no garage queen...its a driver. If I were interested in a concours car I'd just sell this one and shop for a low mileage example and be done with it.

But my interest is more performance oriented...backroad carving and the occasional DE is more my style. I've done w2w racing over a 2 decade span and while I enjoyed it at the time, I'm beyond mounting the race weekend small military campaigns that is amateur road racing. I want a car that is relatively streetable but competent on the track days.

So I look for your input on how you would mod the car in the bare bones spirit of the 911R. What I'm not interested in is complete glass bumpers or flares or spending a ton of money going to a 3.6 conversion. Again, if I wanted that I'd just sell my car as is and buy one already built for pennies (OK, quarters;)) on the dollar. I wanna stay with the relatively fresh 3.2. In essence I'd like to have a 1987 "Carrera R" if the factory had built that instead of the Club Sport or RSA.

Where its at now: A/C delete, backdated heat, chipped, cat bypass, sport two out muffler, rear seat delete, bumper overrides removed, tail lid replaced with a plain lid. I want to upgrade suspension with 22/29TB, upgraded bushings, bumpstear, raised front spindle, possibly larger adjustable Sways.

Beyond that, would you replace quarter windows/rear glass with lexan? Completely remove sound deadening? Just interior? Seats? Near total carpet delete? Simple door panels. Replace bumper blades with 'glass to maintain stock appearance?

I'd like to get to an honest 2400#'s (or less) and 240 hp? Feasible?

Thanks for your thoughts...

(and Milt could you weigh in on your Carrera "R" from your sig:cool:)

many of the things you list aren't really compatible with the G50 and its leviathan clutch setup - or maybe you've already dispensed with the clutch/flywheel?

- you removed the a/c & backdated the heat, what else re heater?

strip out all the sound deadening, auto heater with boosters, electric seats, etc.
- everything that makes it a luxury car

Euro crush tubes to replace the bumper shocks; maybe a FG bumper in rear

generally work harder on the rear and work on the higher parts of the car, rather than lower

Lexan windows come with some heavy penalties & the carpet won't save a lot - but the sound deadening IS heavy on your car

a lot of labor there - maybe you have a work-release candidate in mind?

use SSIs or headers & toss the stock exhaust

- Shakin' Joe (sp.?) did a good job of dealing with the heavy stuff in these last o' the 911 cars

Yea, RW...I'm pondering the options on lighter clutch/pp/fw.

BTW...did you ever come up with a seat choiice?

Good thread here

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/423361-438-lbs-gone-5-days-my-build-story.html

Yeah, jeremy...Joe's thread is what got me to yanking stuff. He's gone a slightly different approach since he went with a back date. I don't plan to go that far.

Jim, I plan to just keep my Recaro SE seats - I have not found anything lighter (that hinges to allow access to the rear) & they work well.

If, someday, there is a nice CF seat that weighs only 7 lbs. well...

Jim - Did you see this one?

Finally! Continuing the transformation of our 911. UPDATED 4/26/10 - Rennlist Discussion Forums

Thanks for the link, Jeremy...good ideas on that thread

2400# for an 87 is going to require some serious stripping. My 78 SC weighs about 2500# and it has fiberglass bumpers and rear deck, no bumper shocks, no sound deadening, an 11lb carpet set, super-light aluminum seats, no heat, no a/c, no fans, lightweight battery, etc etc. It does have a full cage though.. RWebb has it correct, lighten the rear and up high all you can, the difference between a sunroof panel (with the cables, motors, runners and reinforcement) and a non-sunroof panel is substantial.

To me the things the stand out about the 911R is the special front fenders & bumper, the rear windows, the rear stop lights. And narrow body design.

However, I did see a wide body virsion once.

You could sell off your front and put a 911R fiber front on. On the back one could go to narrow rear flairs. I think I would just have a body shop round out the ridge near the wheel opening to make it look more like an ST flair. Then put a fiber RS rear bumper on it with the R tail lights.

To me the 911R is simple, light and fast.

Simple means nothing extra that is not needed. It also has a simple look that is void of excess trim. I don't think that the impact bumpers fit with this look. IMO fiberglass replacements are a must to go after the simplified look. Even the SC-RS had a clean, fiberglass bumper.

Light means to strip weight. More race car oriented go extreme. Still street-able keep as much as you are comfortable.

Fast means that if you proceed to meet the first two criteria the last will naturally fall into place.

There was a recent Excellence with a lightweight SC. This should be your target for your modern 911r interpretation.

OK...here we go. Life kinda got in the way but I'm starting in earnest.

I had originally thoughgt about replacing just the bumper blades to retain a somewhat stock appearance. But thru a very generous Pelican I was able to pick up practcally new front and rear fiberglass RS units at a huge discount. First issue is that the muffler that was on the car when I bought it years ago is too close to the lower valnce so I'll have to trim it a bit. Not a problem...so a little SS bling will have to show through.;)

Anybody know what make muffler this is? Seems well made but can't find any markings. It's a 1 in 2 out...3" diameter inlet and outlets.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1281398986.jpg

Looks like a 2 out B&B.

This is a decent way to backdate it. G series body like your car. note the light hinges, R lamps, simple screen. Budget hint: If you drill the heck out of your standard rear lid frame, it will end up as light as most fiberglass rear lids, lose the stock hinges and install R units. Of course if there is $$ around, then one of our rear lids will save you even more weight out back

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1281400530.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1281400542.jpg

Thanks, Dave...that's a gorgeous work in progress. I really wanted to do something that didn't entail an entire backdate. Your hinges will be a part of this build.

I also scored a fiberglass short hood.;)

Woohooo...pieces and parts arriving right and left!!! And thanks to fellow Pelicans for the great deals on a lot of nearly new stuff at bargain prices.SmileWavy

Suspension stuff arriving tomorrow.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1281574275.jpg

I think I've taken some weight outta the azz given the new ride height.;)

You'll lose a lot more weight off the rear by ditching your current exhaust setup and going with SSIs and an M&K two-in, one-out. Gave me almost an inch of lift from stock, must weigh a good 60 lbs.

Also, replace the boat anchor stock battery with an optima for some more weight savings.

Looking forward to the rest of the build.

I'm right there with ya, Jg. I'm on somewhat of a self imposed budget, so instead of the 16 lb Odyssey battery I opted for a 21 lb Miaata battery special ordered thru Sam's for $51.00. Headed for the smuggler's box once I remove that portion of the a/c. Sure is an improvement over the 49 lb behemoth that was in there.

I'm pondering the exhaust situation...although I live in a temperate clime, I can get brisk on a winter morning and windows can frost/fog up so I haven't really decided about no heat which will dictate to some degree about the exhaust decision tho' SSI's appear to be the way to go until rarelyL* develops his header w/heater boxes.

911 & Porsche world had a great article a little while back about the SC/RS's. Lots of inspiration for light weight G series cars in there.

This is the mag:
911 Porsche World Magazine - Shops

Think I speak for all Aussies in that we are hugely envious of you stateside guys and your cheap P cars! I mean several of you have 2 or more and can seemingly chop and change at will. Here , a 1/2 reasonable classic 911 costs upwards of $US26-27k. There's a no big deal '78 ex US car on sale for ~50k , nuts!

Much as I'd love to do a rat porsche totally stripped of XS fat , it's unlikely to happen. Though I have no qualms about LHD and I spose I could import one .

In the meantime I'll have to admire your fine collective efforts!

Interesting project, Jim. IMO, the R with rear flares seems off. I think the SC/RC would be more fitting with a Carrera as the "donor," although, it would require chopping front/rear fenders to add the appropriate flares. Otherwise, a 73RS or RSR would be great. And an IROC...oh boy, now your talking!

Of course, whatever you do, I'm sure you'll enjoy the project and its results. :)

Love this project .....
 

As a pre-73 longhood owner who has restored one and modified another, I have come to the conclusion that the G Series cars are a much better value as a starting point for a hot rodded Porsche. The Galvanized bodies provide the security of lower rust related maintence costs and slightly better build quality. Most of the systems; electrical, suspension and brakes are also factory upgraded. The G50 set-up in your car brings, IMO, an easier shifting car than the 915 set-up in my 73 3.2L car. These cars have all the cool factor of the early cars. My instinct would be not to backdate it beyond the IROC bumpers, mirrors, S/R delete and a classic whale tail (74/75 era), the prescribed diet ...... then I would jam a 3.6 into it to offset the slightly additional 250 to 300 pounds.

slippery slippery slope.........

Nice get right there! The difference between 'ultimate' and 'really, really nice' is frikkin huge and not linear in relation to $$.


Have you considered lexan rear qtr windows?

Yeah...unlesss you go really thin the weight savings seems neglible...IIRC 11 lbs for rear and 2 1/2 lbs for the sides if you use the frame. Don't know if its worth the trade offs.

BTW, Bfan....is your rally seat black or grey? (Thx for the pics).

black.

Embarking on this myself on an '85. Gradually. RS style rear bumper painted. About to tackle the rear bumper changeover. AFAIK, bumper backdate to fiberglass should save 150 lbs.

Will be watching this thread with interest.

Watching this thread myself as i'm getting frustrated with longhood pricing these days and early SC's are 1/2 the money. Dropping that kinda weight from an SC is a very tempting thing. Too bad so many are sunroof cars.

Kinda why I started looking at 74-76 cars - more likely to find one without a sunroof. The weight difference is substantial and amplified by it's location.

I like what you are thinking Dueller. I relocated a battery into my smugglers box - coming from a 1987 TO a 1974 it's really mind blowing the amount of crap that was added. My Porsche Evolution started with a 1990 C2 - when I went from that to the 1987 I thought - wow - now this is a simple car. Well, I am now rethinking that stance - the early cars are simple - the later cars become more and more complex the later the model.

150#'s is optimistic. I just removed mine and I would guess the net savings is gonna be in the 60-70 range for the rear and a slight bit more for the front. Still nothing to sneeze at. I was suprized at how (relatively) heavy the accordian/lower fender panel was....made out of some thick metal. The two of them weigh more than the entire f/g bumper cover.

At the rate you're going, before long you'll be in a '69:D

Got my fronts mounted up at lunch...


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1281657970.jpg


So maybe I'll have to change my plans and build a cosmetic replica of this famous race car that t5ook advantage of a rules loophole to run sans a rear bumper....hmmmm...a few number balls, a pair of long megaphones and I'm almost there...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1281658204.jpg

j/k:D

So FedEx arrives with some more goodies for me to recycle. Thru Pelicanites William Knight (Knight Racing) and his cousin Joey Smotherman (who just got his first 911 a few weeks ago..a 964) I purchased these needed parts. My car has Boge struts so I needed a set of Bilstein strut housings in order to raise spindles. Lo and behold I was able to snag almost no mileage revalved Bilsteins and new 22/29 Saunders hollow torsion bars. And a set of used control arms so I could still roll my car around while these parts are off to be modified. You may notice the rear shocks are Bilstein HD's rather than Sports. William had them revalved at a setting between stock HD and Sports with some good results...thought I'd try to go outside the box and see if they work for my application.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1281658718.jpg

One problem..You eagle eyes will note the rear torsionss are for a 915 car and mine is a G50. Joey didn't want to separate the suspension package which was understanable so I went ahead and bought the whole package and will sell the 29's and purchase/trade for some to fit my car. Besides in dealing with Joey I got to pick williams brain on some interesting work he's doing with suspensions and brakes...keep your eyes and ears open because I think there's gonna be some fun new stuff coming out of Knight Racing.

I looked long and hard for a long hood to make into my perfect R Gruppe car but the $'s would just not work out for what I wanted to do. A solid SC turned out to be the perfect platform for my hotrod 911. Non-sunroof coupes are not impossible to find. I think there is for sale on Pelican right now.

I hear ya!

Kiwi...your build was what got me to start this project...love your "tucked" bumpers and was the direction I originally was headed in albeit I wanted to do fiberglass bumper blades and go for more weight reduction/less creature comforts.

BTW...were the track pics in your build thread at Hallett?

Hi Dueller, yes the track pics are from Hallett. It's a fun track to drive. Not for those looking for high speed but some very challenging corner sequences. BTW my bumper blades are fiberglass repros of the stock bumper blades made by Getty Design. Good luck with your project. Looks like you have a good starting point.

I agree, Jim. Perhaps I was a bit sacriligious to make even a remote reference to the 911r and a later model Carrera;) Meant no disrespect to the purists. I guess I'm building a basterd hot rod, but not going so far as to not be able to reverse my feeble customizing attempts when high mileage '87 Carreras become uber-collectible:rolleyes:. To that end my attic is filling with a buncha take off stock parts which realistically will be up there for the executor of my estate to dispose of.:p

No sacrilege IMO, Jim. It just seemed a bit off, visually. Once again, IMO. :)

I'm a big proponent of the ba$tard hot rod. I'll keep watching this thread to see the progress/fun you're having.

Nice project. :)

Always liked your car, Flie...used article from Exceelence to get some ideas.

Seats came in today. As you guys have surmised I'm doing this on a budget which is kinda fun shopping for bargains. While Pole Positions would be nice, I went low end with Ultrashield rally. $600 for the pair. Nice product for the price. I ordered 17" 20 degree layback and they fit perfectly on the rails. Probably gonna bolt in passenger on the seat base. Plenty of head room even with the SR.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1283273880.jpg

Here are bumper saving numbers.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1283274653.jpg



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1283274672.jpg