A/C is testing my marriage...

[bha]

...to my Porsche mechanic.

I need some advice. A month ago I took my 1985 Carrera in for an A/C repair. I've owned the car for about 5 years and the A/C has never worked, consequently I anticipated a notable repair bill.

He pressurized the system and no leaks were spotted so he filled it with R12 ($400).

Two days later it's blowing hot air again. Back at the shop the mechanic said the compressor was shot. He replaced it and re-charged once more for an additional $1,000. I parked the car for a couple weeks since we were above 110 degrees outside. This morning when I got in it was blowing hot air again.

The mechanic wants me to bring it in but said I would probably have to pay for yet another charging. I'm very frustrated and feel like I might be being taken advantage of. I would think that by $1,400 I should have some mountain air blowing out my vents. I don't want to get pissy with the guy as he's a very reputable Porsche mechanic and I'd hate to lose the relationship, but I'm also not loaded with discretionary franklins to throw at the guy.

How should I handle the situation? Is it fair that I should have to keep paying for the R12 fill-up? .. and what if the compressor is bad? .. should I have to pay for more R12. And finally, is $400 a reasonable price to pay for charging the system? All advice is appreciated!

[Talewinds]

Originally Posted by bha

He pressurized the system and no leaks were spotted so he filled it with R12 ($400).

This same procedure was going to cost me a mere $280 at my Porsche mechanic. Some more food for thought.

[mikeatfhc]

You have some PP searching to do my friend... start here:

Ultimate AC Thread

BTW: you have come to the right place.

[Scott R]

Should you have to pay for a complete charge every time? No. They should be adding a bit of R22 and charge the rest with nitrogen to find the leaks. If they didn't do that I'm willing to bet they charged the high side of the compressor with liquid and smoked the compressor as well.

You can charge about 2oz of R22 and release it and still be within the EPA rules. In fact they prefer that over dumping a full charge of R12 or 134 into the atmosphere. The nice thing about doing this is you can get a nice high charge with the nitrogen and the R22 is easier to detect on a leak detector.

I think Wayne's book sums up this topic well. I think he says that you need to find someone familiar with 911 AC and not just a normal AC guy. iirc.

[AlfonsoR]

Ultimate AC thread is a good place to start, but I agree that your mechanic seems to be taking advantage of you in this case. Submit another thread for advise on a good mechanic in your area.

I've have yet to upgrade my AC, I have an 89 and it too needs AC help, but my impression from reading several threads is that the best way to go is to go all in...in other words, upgrade the whole thing. if you do this, you will also be able to choose between using R12 or R134. R12 is the original gas and performs better but very expensive, while R134 is much, much cheaper, and if the system is done right, R134 should be sufficient.

The two most common routes (there are others too) is Rennaire and Griffiths. Folks here have had good success with both systems. I don't think I've heard of one person that bought the complete system from either of these two and complained that they didn't get what they were looking for.

Excellence also did an article on upgrading AC in a Carrera, but it was a few years ago, and I can't remember what components they bought, but it's worth a search on their website.

[mthomas58]

Originally Posted by AlfonsoR

Excellence also did an article on upgrading AC in a Carrera, but it was a few years ago, and I can't remember what components they bought, but it's worth a search on their website.

Two part article on A/C Sept 2003 (Part 1) and Oct 2003 (Part 2). I have not read this article but here is the link:

Excellence :: Back Issues

You can spend a small fortune trying to get an old A/C system functional. I've been down this path myself. $1,900 spent trying to get my 1987 functional replacing hoses, motors, condensers, multiple charges, etc. before ripping the entire system out and installing a kit replacement. You could get lucky fixing one problem at a time but most of us have not.

Find a comfortable chair and grab a cup of coffee, you'll be there a while

Ultimate AC Thread

[johnsjmc]

Around here there is an expectation of at least a minimal 30-90 day 1000-3000 mi warranty on repairs done by a licensed garage. Considering you had a leak check and authorized the repairs that were advised . I would not be paying for the additional freon only a day or two later. The compressor and any other parts which subsequently failed maybe but not the gas.

[Jim Richards]

Originally Posted by bha

I've owned the car for about 5 years and the A/C has never worked, consequently I anticipated a notable repair bill.

OK, lets start out with your expectation. Why, after initially expecting a notable repair bill, are you now agonizing about the second R12 refill? What your mechanic is doing wrong is attacking this piecemeal. Is that at your direction, or just your mechanic's way of working? If the A/C hasn't been working for years, and you now want it to work, why not go full-in into this repair? A compressor sitting for years and exposed to ambient conditions is likely no good. Your hoses and receiver dryer are likely shot. Why not replace all of them and other parts likely to be no good after sitting for years? After you've spent a notable amount, and your mechanic has verified that the system holds a charge (perhaps let it sit at the shop for a number of days), maybe you'll be all set and cool this summer. Just my 2 cents.

[89911]

After completely removing my AC in 89, my thoughts on the matter are evident. But from reading post about this over the last 10 years of so about AC in older 911's, there seems to be two basic thoughts. 1, You can't simply recharge the system and be done with. The last time I heard of recharging AC systems was when my dad owned an early 70's station wagon. You can drive around a 15 year old Toyota or Honda and never have an AC issue. 2. You invest in an aftermarket supplier that have been mentioned on earlier thread and redo your complete system. Either way its going to cost you money, added weight, and robs horsepower.

[Joe Bob]

One of the many reasons I have a vintage cabriolet. When I want A/C, I drive my truck.....good luck.

[GH85Carrera]

$400 for just R-12 is a rip-off price. He is making a FAT profit on the R-12 itself. What part of the country are you in? There has to be a better shop to try.

Read the AC thread, you will learn a lot. And you will have a lot of questions. I personally went with a Griffith's system. I have been very happy with it. Just Google Griffith's and you will find him. If you are not willing to do the work, someone on this board will guide you to a local mechanic.

Add your location to your profile, I bet there is a better mechanic in your area.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by bha

...to my Porsche mechanic.

I need some advice. A month ago I took my 1985 Carrera in for an A/C repair. I've owned the car for about 5 years and the A/C has never worked, consequently I anticipated a notable repair bill.

He pressurized the system and no leaks were spotted so he filled it with R12 ($400).

Two days later it's blowing hot air again. Back at the shop the mechanic said the compressor was shot. He replaced it and re-charged once more for an additional $1,000. I parked the car for a couple weeks since we were above 110 degrees outside. This morning when I got in it was blowing hot air again.

The mechanic wants me to bring it in but said I would probably have to pay for yet another charging. I'm very frustrated and feel like I might be being taken advantage of. I would think that by $1,400 I should have some mountain air blowing out my vents. I don't want to get pissy with the guy as he's a very reputable Porsche mechanic and I'd hate to lose the relationship, but I'm also not loaded with discretionary franklins to throw at the guy.

How should I handle the situation? Is it fair that I should have to keep paying for the R12 fill-up? .. and what if the compressor is bad? .. should I have to pay for more R12. And finally, is $400 a reasonable price to pay for charging the system? All advice is appreciated!

The first thing an A/C expert technician would have done is charge you less than $200 to convert and charge the system with R134a.

[911nut]

Originally Posted by 89911

You can drive around a 15 year old Toyota or Honda and never have an AC issue.

Not likely.
The weakest link in old a/c systems is the condenser. Corrosion between the aluminum matrix and the braze material causes them to leak. No one will be willing to invest $1000+ in a 15 year old car.....

[89911]

Originally Posted by 911nut

Not likely.
The weakest link in old a/c systems is the condenser. Corrosion between the aluminum matrix and the braze material causes them to leak. No one will be willing to invest $1000+ in a 15 year old car.....

Yes. I guess my point is that my car sold in 1989 dollars for almost $60k. Thats a lot of money for an AC that has as many problems as these cars do.

[ShakinJoe]

The mechanic has either made a mistake, is hosing you, or is a complete idiot.

By the way, you are too if you did not research prior to treatment.

Have him give you pressure readings from hi and low side of system
How much per pound is he charging you for R-12? (ask him)
How does he leak check? (what type of leak detector) R-12 is actually easy to detect but the sensor tip on the leak detector must be maintained.
Did he properly evacuate the system and did it hold a vacuum?(Ask him) I know he didn't do this!

Be educated going in.......

[T77911S]

maybe he is not as reputable as you think.

[Bob Kontak]

I think you have a leak that he did not find. I don't like the mechanics methods either. Your R/D should have been replaced during the first repair given the 5 years of not using. He should know that and should have presented you with that option.

Here is what I suggest you do even if you are a complete stone as to understanding ac functioning:

1. Look at the float ball in the receiver dryer. If it is floating (on the top of the sight glass) you have R-12 in there. If it is on the bottom you have a leak if it had just been filled properly.
Turn your front wheel all the way to the left and you can access the R/D sight glass without pulling the wheel. Not sure if you must be running the AC for the test but I always do. Use a flashlight.

2. Make sure your compressor clutch is engaging. All the fans inside will still blow even if the compressor is not engaging. Look a the compressor pulley when ac is off then look at it when on. The center of the pulley spins when on. Check the wire connection in the engine bay that feeds the compressor. I think it is less than a foot away from the compressor on my 81.

3. If you have R12 in there and the compressor clutch is working, quickly touch the metal part of the hose that runs to the condensor on the bottom of the engine lid. It should be really hot as it is carrying the compressed R12. The other hose should be cold.

4. Assuming the rear hose is getting hot - check the evaporator in the smugglers box. Test the basic functioning of the expansion valve. I can't remember what you have access to from the top (I think the fan is in the way) but would be nice to see if the evaporator is getting cold. You can access the bottom of the evaporator from the passenger foot well - remove the access board and feel the fins - they should be real cold - and water should be dripping on the ground from condensation. Of course, you will probably have cold air blowing as well if this is the case.

5. For later - check how much fuzz, lint, hair etc is on the bottom of the evaporator (foot well port) You can improve air flow by gently cleaning this off. You got bigger issues though right now.

Even if all the core parts are working poorly you should have some cooling occurring if there is R12 in there.

One other point - if you are in 100 degree temps and your car is in the sun baking, you ain't going to get that mountain air feel ever out of a stock 85 system. It will be cold at the vents but the cabin will not be 68 degrees.

[bha]

Thanks for all the advice... I've learned more than I wanted to know about Porsche A/C in the last 12 hours. I still have a dilemma on my hands though, which hasn't been answered (perhaps I'll need to query a psychology forum)

How to play the deal with my mechanic considering I'm $1,400 into the hand?
do I:
A) let the mechanic keep trying until he gets it right?
B) cut bait and move on to another shop, expensive lesson learned?
C) demand that he fix the A/C system for no additional charges?
D) set fire to my precious 911 in his parking lot, strip naked and fling feces?

Ya, I'm probably a moron (as some of you alluded) for trusting the expertise and goodwill of a reputable Porsche shop. Reputable not only in just the word of others, but my own experience as well. If I could have a do-over I would have probably done a retro-fit with an after-market system, but that was never provided as an option.

I'll drop it off in the morning and see what he comes back with this time.

[Vmarch]

I agree with Bob Kontak, the AC guy should have replaced the receiver/drier with a new one. An inoperative system is inoperative for a reason. That reason should have been rooted out before charging the system. Either charge the system with nitrogen to flush it and to test for leaks or the system should have been put under a vacuum and let it sit overnight to see if there are any leaks. 85's had the non barrier hoses so new barrier hoses are in order. A competent guy should have pulled the evaporator to clean it and test it for pressure.

Buy yourself a vacuum pump, set of guages, bubble hose crimper and make your own hoses or find a better AC guy, you obviously went to a moron who is just hosing you.

Good luck!

[Por_sha911]

There are some mechanics that are great with engines but don't know squat about A/C (no less air-cooled Porsche A/C). As already stated, if the high side pressure is too high it will blow the compressor. How long did he hold vacuum? Did he replace the receiver/drier? Do you have barrier hose?
If you want dependable "cold" A/C, go through the entire system. New hoses (if not recently replaced with barrier hose), receiver/drier (consider a Procooler), seals, and o-rings. Look long and hard at the the evaporator and both condensers. Use the search button and read read read.
p.s. welcome to Pelican. How about posting a pic of your ride? (its an custom around here for newbies to post a pic). I hope it won't be 3 years before we hear from you again.