Alcohol We Can't Drink

[sam77rs]

The gasoline we buy today contains 10% ethanol, and will, in the near future, contain 15% ethanol. This is not good news for those of us who have, and like to restore, old cars (or motorcycles, or farm tractors, or anything else that runs on gasoline). Our old car hobby is facing a big problem.

I have already experienced this problem. The PO of my 911 back dated it to Webers and did a very sloppy job. He had a lot of trouble with it and never got it running right, so he just parked it. He let it sit for THREE years with 4 gals of gas in the tank. When I began working with it, I found (among many other things) that the new Pierburg fuel pump was TOAST.

What happened here?

Ethanol is hygroscopic, meaning it absorbs water. When it absorbs enough water, it will separate itself from the gasoline. Since the ethanol/water mix is heavier than gasoline, it will fall to the bottom of the container. In this case it went on down into the fuel pump. Ethanol/water is corrosive and attacks most plastics, rubbers, gaskets, fiberglass, aluminum, brass, etc.

Newer cars are not at as much risk as older cars because they have sealed fuel systems that keep moisture out, but older cars, with carburetors, have systems that are vented to atmosphere. So what are we, with older cars, to do? We could try to find gasoline that doesn't have ethanol in it (try pure-gas.org) but that's getting pretty hard to do. We could run racing fuel, but that's expensive, or we could convert our cars to run on something else, like propane.

Or we could take the ethanol out of the gasoline we get at the pump. It's a PITA but it can be done. Simply put the gasoline into a container, add 2% water, stir, and wait about an hour. The ethanol will absorb water and fall to the bottom. The unused water, being even heavier, will be below it. Then just drain the ethanol mix out the bottom. What's left is pure gasoline.

Obviously you will need a container that has a drain valve on the bottom. Also it needs to be clear so you can see the line between the ethanol mix and the gasoline above it. And it needs to be a least 5 gals capacity to make the process more efficient. Beer brewing suppliers might have something like this.

Got a test tube? Put a few cc's of gasoline in it, add a little water, and watch it happen. It'll make you want to go back and take Chemistry 101 again. LOL.

One more thing. The gasoline you're left with won't have as high an Octane rating as it had before because the Ethanol did contribute to the Octane rating. You could start out with premium and assume you'll have regular when you're done, or you could start with regular and add octane booster as the last step, or you could just get a new hobby altogether.

Ever think of stamp collecting?

[Tippy]

Sounds like there is room to capitalize off this problem.

[Mr.Doback]

I am not familiar with Carbs and converting, but I have been seeing many people convert their fuel system to accept up to e85. I don't see why we could not replace fuel lines and pumps and whatever else is necessary to allow the car run on e85?

Hopefully someone can chime in with more information.

[Tippy]

I'm one that can't find this stuff. I welcome it!

[Brown747]

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

[mclmk8d]

Originally Posted by Brown747

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

The problem, at least here in South Florida, is that the gas is 90 octane or below, not good for my 3.2 other than adding octane boosters every tankful. That can get to be expensive.

[RWebb]

just use the car and don't let it sit for long periods - if you do, then add Stabil

[Canada Kev]

I think there's even a Stabil that's specifically for use in Ethanol.

[dshepp806]

So far, so good,..as to sourcing 93 octane non-ethanol in my area...keeping my fingers crossed. A few years back, I removed the gas tank filter and found it to look extremely clean! I replaced it, nonetheless,..sending my perfectly good old one to a buddy in Australia (free of charge). The fuel tank looked great, too!

Someone had mentioned to me about the Stabil product that Kevein speaks of....

As Webb noted, I never, ever let my car sit......TODAY, I dropped her off at the Painter's shop for a redo,.....since she'll be there for a month (+), I added some Stabil to the full tank before making the 100 mile trip.

Wonder when the time comes when you simply cannot get non-ethanol gas?

BEST!

Doyle

[drmatera]

embrace the new technology. Update your system to tolerate E85 and enjoy the extra power your engine will produce. My '86 EFI'd 930 has run on E85 for over 2 years now. Stock fuel system all the way to the rails. I too add a shot of Sta-bil to every tank. And yes my car sits for weeks at a time

[HawgRyder]

The problem I ran into was with the Harley (1951 Panhead) with an old brass Linkert carb.
When I was forced to use ethanol it clogged up the filter...I cleaned out the filter...ran some more miles...and had to clean the filter again.
Apparently it was scouring the gas tank and getting all the crud out and down the gas line.
After 2 clean outs it seemed to run OK...and a side note...the carb looked very clean down the bore.
Bob

[Jack Olsen]

Let's please limit this discussion to the technical aspects of ethanol in fuel. If you want to talk about the wisdom of the policy itself, please start a thread in the Religion and Politics sub-forum.

[sam77rs]

Newer cars, with fuel injection, can do OK with E10 because their fuel systems are made of materials that resist the effects of alcohol, and are essentially closed off from the atmosphere so the fuel won't absorb moisture. The Gov wants to go to E15, stating that cars made from 2002 on, can handle it. The Automotive Industry and the AAA are pushing back, saying, "Not True". And the Aviation Industry will not allow ANY alcohol in Av-Gas.

But it's coming anyway. So get ready. It will be up to E40 in a few years.

Some Drag Racers are using E85 because it burns cooler than gasoline and is a less expensive way to get higher octane. E85 is about 110 or 112 octane. They are running big motors and carburators. They will run all weekend, and on Sunday nite, when they're done racing, they will drain the fuel out and completely purge out the system.

So everybody is gonna be OK, right? WRONG

What about those of us in the Old Car Hobby? We have cars that are 35, or 40, or more, years old, with carburators on them, and made out of materials that won't tolerate alcohol. These cars have Historic license plates on them, and get driven maybe 400 to 1000 miles per year. Mainly to car shows. I have a lot of friends who are in this catagory. What are we to do?

The only thing I know is we will have to remove the ethanol from the gasoline we use, and we will have to purge the system completely dry in the Fall, before we put our cars away for Winter storage.

[Winter]

just use the car and don't let it sit for long periods - if you do, then add Stabil

This advice works for me! Just go drive! And often!

[porsche930dude]

i have quite a few small engine powered minibikes and things. we have e10 around here. i find that if i dont run the engines atleast once every 6 weeks or so i get a gunked up system. pretty easy on most of them though. pull off the carb bowl and dump the sludge and let whatever crap drain off from the bottom of the tank. back in buisness in a minute or two. the old style rubber lines get dry and hard too. it has me a bit concerned about the lines in my 82 911 so iv been kinda keeping an eye on them. Good tip Sam on the seperating . ill have to pass that on .

[Quicksilver]

The idea of separating the alcohol out of the gasoline is intriguing. It would also give you a good source of water/alcohol mix for running water injection...

The question then is what difference in octane will it make when removing 15% ethanol from it? Straight ethanol is 99 octane (with only 62% of the BTUs of gasoline...). I know that some octane boosters such as tetraethyllead will cause an octane spike with the first bit that is added but I suspect adding a fuel, as opposed to a modifier, won't cause the same spike.

[GH85Carrera]

And what do you do with all that extra ethonal in your garage?

[tdw28210]

E85 is for "flex fuel" vehicles only. Stabil (not affiliated) has a rather decent (but long) white paper on the use of ethanol for those who are interested.

http://www.goldeagle.com/UserFiles/file/STA-BIL%20files/White_Paper_Ethanol_%20Blended_Gasline.pdf

They also claim to make an ethanol specific fuel stabilizer. Never used it, so I cannot opine on its effectiveness.

[Quickstep192]

"the Aviation Industry will not allow ANY alcohol in Av-Gas"

This is intriguing. There's a small airport not to far from me. I wonder if they'd let me fill up there. Does anyone know what the octane of Av gas is?

[Hard-Deck]

Originally Posted by quickstep192

"the aviation industry will not allow any alcohol in av-gas"

this is intriguing. There's a small airport not to far from me. I wonder if they'd let me fill up there. Does anyone know what the octane of av gas is?

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