Best handling....lightness vs. distribution vs....?

[911st]

Thinking of the weight and balance thing for a street car.

I still think it is best to reduce weight until the cost per pound or one's vision of comfort starts reaching a point of diminishing returns.

However, if after most of the weight has been removed, if one can move some things to achieve closer to a 50/50 side to side distribution it might be worth looking at.

I would not go so far as to put ballast back in the car to do this.

The gain from doing this is better braking at the limit.

It is not much fun having the right front tire brake loose at the limit or when cold. This might also be useful in the twisties.

If this can not be achieved one might consider playing with the corner balance toward a more equal front tire weights. If the variance is not to significant.

Remember, weight jacking one side to achieve front wheel balance may make for a bit different handling side to side.

In most cases the rear braking is set to a lower threashold than the front on a 911 so the rear tires do not seem to lock as often inless braking into a turn. If the car has a LSD this also reduces rear lock up potental.

Not sure if there is much of a way to do this. Porsche already put the oil tank on the right side. One might move the battery as far to the right as possible. Might be able to offset the driver seat if one is going with a narrow shell style seat. If keeping tools, jack, and or spare, move them as far right as possable. Of course the driver could look at losing weight.

Worrying about front to rear distribution is probably not worth the effort on a street car except for a few that just feel better knowing they have moved there motor forward an inch or so or relocated the oil tank to the front.

I would still just tune the suspension for the weight of the car and for where the front to rear weight distribution on ends up with.

Just a thought.

[j911brick]

911 - Weight + balance + handling = 914 Do the math.

[J P Stein]

Back in the day when I thought I could drive autocross well, I looked into how to make my car faster(fastest?) It went something like power, weight, tires, weight, suspension, weight, mo power, chassis stiffness...oops, mo weight ,weight, weight, weight, wait! 1725lbs should be good.

I finally got someone good to drive the thing....problem over.

[Bullet Bob]

Originally Posted by j911brick

911 - Weight + balance + handling = 914 Do the math.

Right! A well set up 914 will run circles around a 911 in the handling department. Too bad they discontinued that in '76. It would have been fun to watch that morph into the 918 spyder over the years.

Here is a great example :-)

[Flieger]

I agree with 911st that I would try to get better weight distribution if I can move things around easily, but would not ballast the car to achieve that (unless for a class weight regulation).

I believe the story was that the 914 above had qualified near the front but got moved to the back for some infringment or maybe he missed qualifying after being fast in practive or something.

[Bullet Bob]

I know it rained during qualifying so the start order was skewed a bit. Nice to see what a well set up 914-6 can do to the well set up 911s though. It makes we want to finish my 914-6 project.

[Flieger]

Yeah, but what would a well set-up 944 do!

[Bullet Bob]

Originally Posted by Flieger

Yeah, but what would a well set-up 944 do!

Well, there were several of those in the race as well You aren't one of the holier-than-thou 911 folks are you? As an owner of both a 911 and 914-6 I definitely appreciate the capabilities that a 914 brings to the table and it is one of the best handling platforms Porsche ever produced.

[j911brick]

Originally Posted by Flieger

Yeah, but what would a well set-up 944 do!

Not as good... Yes, balance is nice, but still too much weight in front and doesn't have the same polar moment. Mid engine will always be the best design and the 914 hit the magic numbers in regards to balance, wheel base, track, and CG. I'm surprised more people don't "get it".

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by 911st

.. reduce weight until the cost per pound or one's vision of comfort starts reaching a point of diminishing returns.

...

one of the best posts yet on this thread

[J P Stein]

Like you BulletBob I've owned both the 911 & 914. For several years after committing to the 914 there was something missing....the feeling that the car was a "piece" as the 911 gives.
The car was fairly quick but not confidence inspiring ...... quirky.

Then I added down tubes from the cage to the suspension towers......AH HA!
There it is....the front & back are connected......all the TM&E I put into the suspension actually gives a payback by doing it's designed work rather than being dampened out/distorted by chassis flex. It now did the same thing every time.
Sure, it still does a vicious snap spin when you get it wrong....but that is a small price to pay.

[Dantilla]

Since the original question was about street cars, a couple more thoughts/answers about my car:

-Most of the original undercoating remains, and I resprayed the areas where undercoating was removed. I was absolutely flabbergasted when I started dismantling the car that I could find no rust, and no sign of rust repair. This car has obviously been pampered. I purchased it from an insurance auction after it suffered a minor engine fire. Perfect candidate to yank out the whimpy 2.4 the factory installed.

-Why the stock steel rear bodywork? It's what I had. Whatever parts I had on hand got screwed together. I have an "S" style front bumper in fiberglass that I have yet to prep, paint and install. While it will look better than the original with the 73.5-only rubber blocks, I do like the protection they offer over plastic for minor parking lot bumps..

-I used 23/31 torsion bars with autocrossing in mind, but would not want them any softer, even on the street. I love the quick turn-in and responsiveness. The roads near me are not in bad condition. If I drove the car in pot-hole land, I may think differently.

-However-

-The car is NOT a daily driver. It has no radio, no A/C, no cup holders. I really like the race seats, but would switch to a little wider sport seat for daily use. I've got a pair of Sparcos sitting in storage, but will keep the OMP seats currently in the car to insure adequate headroom when wearing a helmet.

-Finally, the 3.2. While I went with that because "It's what I had", I like the idea that the car has gobs more power and torque, yet has the same reliability as any stock 1984-89 Carrera. The Motronic box is under the driver's seat, just like any other car powered by a 3.2. Just put gas in it and go. Starts every time. At some point I may want a Steve Wong chip for it, but I'm very pleased with it just as is. A stock 3.2 pushing a 2200 pound car through a 7:31 ring & pinion is a hard combination to beat.

For a daily driver, a few more creature comforts may be nice for long drives, and an 8:31 tranny would offer better mileage and less rpm noise at freeway speeds. But I'm keeping mine the way it is. Couldn't be happier.

[AlfonsoR]

Originally Posted by Bullet Bob

Right! A well set up 914 will run circles around a 911 in the handling department. Too bad they discontinued that in '76. It would have been fun to watch that morph into the 918 spyder over the years.

Should I bring up the F word?......yes, I will go there...Ferrari. The view that mid engined is the best in handling isn't always supported in GT2 racing is it? Porsche has beat Ferrari many many times.

On a purely theoretical level, it is true that mid engine is the best, but racing has so many variables that the advantage of mid engine can be overcome. Handling involves 3 basic things: Stopping, accelerating, and turning. Those 3 basics things are actually very complex subjects of course and this doesn't even include the driver or race strategies.

The thing a 914 has over a 911 is less weight, which is key. So, it's not so much that the 914 is mid engined as it is that it's much lighter, right?

Back to the OP, a light early 911, say 2000 lbs with a 3.6 making 325 HP and a 6 spd G50 with close gears....that would be very quick. Weight to power of 6.15. That's pretty close to super car stats...

[mickey356]

Originally Posted by Bullet Bob

Right! A well set up 914 will run circles around a 911 in the handling department. Too bad they discontinued that in '76. It would have been fun to watch that morph into the 918 spyder over the years.

Here is a great example :-)

Did anyone tell teh other drivers it was a race? That is AWESOME!!!!!

[winders]

Originally Posted by Bullet Bob

Right! A well set up 914 will run circles around a 911 in the handling department.

Really? There was a well setup 914 that raced in the PRC GTL class in 2010 that was well setup and well driven. It was comparable to the fastest 911 (964) in the class.

The class has weight with driver limit of 2350 lbs. The 964 was not running any ballast and I believe weighed more than the class limit. I would guess the 914 was running ballast and weighed in at the class limit.

The PRC GTL class limits engine size to 3.6L or less. Engine management and EFI are free. The intake manifold must be from a 1984 – 1995 911, and must be stock from the exit of the throttle body to the intake of the cylinder head. Headers are limited to a max O.D. of 1 5/8". Other than requiring MacPherson struts at the front and Factory trailing arms at the rear, the suspension is free. The class has spec tires as well.

If the 914 were a vastly superior handling car, this class would show it. It didn't work out that way.

Scott

[j911brick]

Originally Posted by winders

Really? There was a well setup 914 that raced in the PRC GTL class in 2010 that was well setup and well driven. It was comparable to the fastest 911 (964) in the class.

The class has weight with driver limit of 2350 lbs. The 964 was not running any ballast and I believe weighed more than the class limit. I would guess the 914 was running ballast and weighed in at the class limit.

The PRC GTL class limits engine size to 3.6L or less. Engine management and EFI are free. The intake manifold must be from a 1984 – 1995 911, and must be stock from the exit of the throttle body to the intake of the cylinder head. Headers are limited to a max O.D. of 1 5/8". Other than requiring MacPherson struts at the front and Factory trailing arms at the rear, the suspension is free. The class has spec tires as well.

If the 914 were a vastly superior handling car, this class would show it. It didn't work out that way.

Scott

Even under these circumstance there is no way to know if this is an apples to apples comparison, unless you have very intimate knowledge of both cars. For all anybody knows one could be cheating, or one not built to the limit; or somebody have a bad day and/or somebody having a good day. I've raced my targa for many years, always at the front of the pack, and won many races, and my car is not exactly built to the limit. In fact, because I have always has a lessor budget than most, I have has a lessor car than most. Does that mean a targa is a better race car than a coupe because I can beat better built coupes?

Bottom line: There is a reason all the fastest race cars in the world are mid-engine.

My original post suggesting the 914 was because I was thinking that if the OP really wanted to get the balance right he should make his car mid-engine (its been done). Then I thought the 914 is basically just that: a mid engine 911, using many of the same parts and specs as a 911. So why not just start out with a 914?

[Bullet Bob]

Here is a question for JP Stein... How many 911s of any year or model beat you in autocrossing?

[j911brick]

Originally Posted by Bullet Bob

Here is a question for JP Stein... How many 911s of any year or model beat you in autocrossing?

FYI: I have in fact taken FTD in a autocross in a stock 1.7l 914 on stock size 15 yr old street tires. There were many 911s in attendance.

[James Brown]

Originally Posted by al lkosmal

I am seeking out a 911 for my next driver/project. I have typically concentrated on the engine/drive train, because that is what I like to do. I envision that for my next project, I may focus on an long wheel base, longhood (although SC's and even 964's keep distracting me) and shoot for the ultimate street rod.....as it relates to stop, go and balance. The 1st two (stop and go) I can do, but..............what about balance/handling, while retaining occasional long distance drive-ability.

I often hear and/or see people removing parts or swapping out their bumpers for fiberglass, etc. to lighten their 911s. Adding lightness sounds like a good thing, but.... It seems to me that the quest for "lightness" has somewhere along the way, lost any meaning as it relates to weight distribution and balance. I.E. it's turned into bragging rights about what has been done, without any connection to the "why".

I expect that a slightly more systemic approach, perhaps linked to a goal regarding the use of the car, may be more appropriate. I.E. lightness vs, distribution.

So, here are my simple questions, that I'm sure, have a myriad of answers, but.....please tell me what you know.

1. What is the typical weight distribution of the early to mid-year 911s.

2. What would the "best" weight and distribution goal be for a 911 street rod.? (no track...no auto-X...just street rod, twisties carver).

3.) How would you achieve this?

Beyond that simple question, what suspension changes lend themselves well to compensate for the rear end weight bias?

4. ) Torsion bars vs. coil overs?

5. ) wider track/wheels?

6. ) shocks?

6. ) Whatever else I have forgotten, due to sheer ignorance......

It would be great if your advice was based on what you have achieved and experienced with your own cars. I.E. first hand experience/knowledge.


Regards,

Al

So, lets get back to Al's questions for a STREET car. Race car debates will last forever. Al, are you set on a 911 or will a 914 /6 do?

[winders]

Originally Posted by j911brick

Even under these circumstance there is no way to know if this is an apples to apples comparison, unless you have very intimate knowledge of both cars. For all anybody knows one could be cheating, or one not built to the limit; or somebody have a bad day and/or somebody having a good day.

You will never get an apples apple comparison when comparing and apple to an orange. But a spec class with spec weight, tire, and engine limits is as close as you are going to get when comparing a 911 type to a 914.

This is a established race class and each car is well developed and the drivers are of similar skill. A 964 with a G50 is certainly not the ideal 911-based car for the class. You can get the weight to the class limit but it is real close so there is minimal ballast to adjust weight distribution and cg. The advantage goes to the 914 here. It clearly can be made much lighter than the class weight limit so it is likely that a lot of ballast is run and put where it is most advantageous to weight distribution and cg. The 964 is not a cheater car. There aren't many rules and both cars have similar power.

Neither car is developed to the nth degree.

My performance observations are based on a year long series run on 4 different tracks.

Just because the 914 is mid-engined does not mean it will run circles around a 911-based car. Clearly the optimum choice is a mid-engine design. But there is a lot more to handling than engine location.

Scott