Re-title. What is it?

[jamesjedi]

I am not familiar with idea of a re-title. Can a car be re-titled to an older year? I think I have just sen this. The car looks like an 87, but has 74 VIN. All numbers match.

Thanks

[dad911]

Show us some pics.

Could be anything from an illegal vin swap to a mid 80's body kit on a 74 chassis.

Are you saying the engine # matches vin # for a '74?

[jamesjedi]

Here is the front trunk. It looks like a later car. This is also where the VIN is.

[ratpiper71T]

Here is the front trunk. It looks like a later car. This is also where the VIN is.

If you look center left in the photo, the stamped VIN is visible. I think on later cars (81 on) the VIN moved to the center of the trunk area. So this would be a pre-81 car, I think.

[MBruns]

That photo shows that it had power brakes, which means it at least late 76/77 model if my memory serves me

Mike Bruns

[Grady Clay]

jamesjedi,

Yes, there are many reasons for ‘re-titling’ a car.
Usually it is rebuilding a car from salvage, a theft recovery or simply lost documentation.
These (usually) require extensive documentation recorded with the DMV and a ‘Title Bond’.
The Bond is (usually) for double the value of the car and serves to protect anyone with an un-recorded interest in the car.

For you, we need all the numbers.
What is the VIN on the chassis?
Does that agree with the title?
What is shown on the title as ‘prior title’?

That is a good start.
There is more.

Best,
Grady

[Quicksilver]

Some states are 'less then diligent' with their titling process so odd things can happen. I know a guy that had a Beck 550 that was titled with a complete description as a "55 Spyder" thanks to the state of Georgia. Because it was now a 1955 model year he was able to put California black plates on it...

[jamesjedi]

Thanks for the help. I may buy this car. The car also has G50 torsion etc. The VIN is as follows Which, I believe is a 74;

9114101655.

The VINs in trunk and windshield post, are all the same. Is it leagal to re-title a car with an earlier VIN number?

[Jack Olsen]

A major collision repair can involve a donor car's front end being welded onto a later car's rear half.

[ratpiper71T]

I am not familiar with idea of a re-title. Can a car be re-titled to an older year? I think I have just sen this. The car looks like an 87, but has 74 VIN. All numbers match.



Thanks

Not trying to sound rude. But I don't understand why you think it has been retitled rather than updated with the G50 etc.? Isn't it more likely that all VINs match that they installed power brakes and G50 etc. to the '74? Or am I missing something here?

[jamesjedi]

Thanks for the help. Jack, that was my first thought, the car does not appear to have any signs of having the front end grafted. I just talked to the owner, who has been nothing but very helpful and open about the car. He is on the board here. Ratpiper, you are not rude, we are trying to figure this out.

There is another sign of it being a non 74, the back quarter windows do not have screw the screw holes for mounting the windows that opens. When this is combined with the trunk area holes, the G50/torsion set-up and the center dash area, it starts to look like a 87-89.

The owners theory, and only a "theory" is that the vin may have been swapped for vintage racing. I have never heard of this practice. Anyways, I like the car, I want to be sure that this is all ethical. I have only positive comments about the owner of the car. He has been very helpful.

[jamesjedi]

The bottom line; Is this something to be concerned about?

[Grady Clay]

9114101655.

This is a 1974 911 (normal, not S or Carrera) coupe with the consecutive chassis number 1655.

Since it is nicely apart, please look for some other numbers.

There is a number stamprd in the dash, below and to the right of the radio opening.
What is that number?

Take your camera and post images of the VIN in the trunk, on the A-pillar and the decal on the door latch panel.

Take some images up under the VIN in the trunk (green arrows).
Also, post more images around this area.
We are looking for the welds across the panels.

The provision for a vacuum-assist brake (yellow arrow) should not be on a panel with a ’74 VIN.

It is OK having put several pieces together but you want to know where.



Best,
Grady

[jamesjedi]

Thanks Grady. That is very specific information. I have been looking for something just like that in my books. I will call him tonight and get the information. Thanks.

[ossiblue]

Grady, as usual, has focused directly on the problem. I would especially be interested in seeing photos of the area around the stamped VIN as that is the only thing on the entire panel that doesn't make sense. Also, a clear close up of the VIN on the A pillar may reveal non-factory rivets or some other flaw. I sense a VIN swap here.

[jamesjedi]

Let's say it is a vin swap, what does that mean? I will get more information, I do not wish to put him in an awkward spot. I really like the car, but more information is needed.

[Wil Ferch]

As long as we're noodling numbers, let's also make some minor corrections on what was posted here.

Earlier quote from Ratpiper71T... " If you look center left in the photo, the stamped VIN is visible. I think on later cars (81 on) the VIN moved to the center of the trunk area. So this would be a pre-81 car, I think..."

The stamped number plate on the trunk floor did not move for the mid-to-late 80's cars....same place.

Also this---> this number on the trunk floor should be routinely called a "chassis number" in this discussion with what we know so far ...as that is what it is in ALL cases of all model years.....but it is only SOMETIMES a VIN number ( ex: it is a VIN for Euro-spec cars, or for pre-80/81 US cars). Once the 17 digit VIN numbering system went in place at that time world-wide for all cars, the trunk number will not be the "VIN" number for US cars, so we should stop calling it that until we know the build year of the car,and for which market it was built.

For the cars that properly have a 17 character VIN, the number on the trunk floor will have "ZZZ" as the 3rd, 4th, and 5th digits....and all numbers preceding the ZZZ...and all numbers after the ZZZ......*will* ( should) match the remainder of the 17 characters of the VIN shown in other places on the car.

[Grady Clay]

I posted above:
"It is OK having put several pieces together but you want to know where."

I should add "Why".


The key is to find out.
There will be some explanation.

What you DON’T want to happen is for you (or anyone) spend $50,000.00 building a very nice, fast and competitive racer, only to find Allstate has title.

If there is an issue, it is easy to fix now.
It could cost you (or someone) a bundle if ignored.

It may be that there is nothing unusual and this is a ‘tempest in a teapot’.
Find out.



I think there is a ‘quiet problem’ out there with 2.0 SWB racers and others built decades ago and sold without title transfer.
Every single one of these cars (Porsches) was originally sold with a Factory MSO and titled for the street.
Every one should have a ‘title trail’ back to Porsche.

If there is a break in that ‘trail’, the title should have a Surety Bond to protect (insure) your interest or that of someone with a valid claim.

Best,
Grady

[ossiblue]

Another check you could make is the location of the fuel pump bracket. The 74 had the fuel pump originally mounted above the left rear axle, just below the passenger seat. Even if the pump has been moved to the front, the mounting tray would remain if the chassis is truly a 74.

[jamesjedi]

Everyone has provided great information.The owner has checked the numbers. The title (ownership papers) do match the VIN numbers on the car. The aluminum tag in the trunk, the VIN number stamped on the chassis in the trunk, & also the VIN number on the windshield post.
It sounds like we now look for weld seams near the id tags?
He was out tonight. I will talk to him tomorrow.