Can anyone tell what ride height I am at, and if I need to lower?

[joefrantz]

Having just set the ride height on my own car, I'd like to make a few observations.

If you look at the link offered in post #1, the second picture in the second post of the linked thread shows the car, on a lift, sitting on its tires. There is a guy (cbeers?) sitting under the car.

Notice that the front suspension arms are sitting just about level. As I understand it, this is the max that the front of the car can be lowered without inviting shock travel and suspension geometry problems. There are a number of threads describing the details of this issue.

If the car is at the recommended 1 degree of rake, then it follows that the rear is also at its lowest height. Any lower in the rear will produce less rake. Any higher, more rake.

Again, it is my understanding that going any lower safely will require raised spindles and probably shortened shocks.

The fender height measurement is only an approximation for describing ride height. You really can't separate ride height from suspension geometry and tire size. The best way to measure it is by using the factory method of spindle height vs tbar height.

At the current suspension settings, you could go lower by changing to shorter diameter tires, but I doubt that is the intent, as it would open the gap between the fender and the tire

You can close the gap by fitting larger diameter tires, but then you're actually raising the car (and altering your final drive ratio).

[RSM-M491]

I am not a tech guy, but I am a fellow targa owner, I would say the rear needs to go a bit lower. Front looks fine....

GL!

Rod

[jimbauman]

Park it dead level in a parking lot or flat garage floor and measure it as decribed. THEN you'll know what you need to do....

JB

[tazzieman]

Whilst low cars look mean , the tradeoff is in driveability.
Because mine is at stock euro height I can actually use it day to day , including potholed roads. If it's a neighbourhood cruiser that's a different animal altogether!
The Germans did a superb job designing and perfecting a car with great all round capabilities for the average man...though as we know P car drivers are beyond average

[T77911S]

Originally Posted by joefrantz

Notice that the front suspension arms are sitting just about level. As I understand it, this is the max that the front of the car can be lowered without inviting shock travel and suspension geometry problems. There are a number of threads describing the details of this issue.

.

you expressed my concerns.

when the car is at normal height, the lower arms angle down towards the wheel. when the wheel moves up, (the body goes down), like the outside wheel in a turn, the lower control arm pushes the bottom of the wheel out, increasing negative camber, which is good. but, if you start with the lower control arm parallel with the ground, if the wheel moves up, (or the body goes down), the bottom of the wheel moves in, reducing negative camber and reducing grip.

another way to look at it is, as you lower the car, negative camber is added to the front end to a point where no more is gained. any suspension movement from there only reduces negative camber, which is not good.

changing the angle of the control arms also moves the roll center (RC), along with the ride height, but usually not the same amount for both. this can actually increase the amount of body roll up front and require the need for a bigger sway bar to reduce it.
im not going to get into what all goes on, i probably dont know enough to explain it properly anyway.

this is just my opinion:
its kind of a vicious cycle, we lower our cars to lower the CG to make it handle better, this can increase the amount of body roll due to the RC vs CG relationship, but since the susension can no longer do what it was designed to do, add negative camber as the body rolls, we have to reduce body roll with much bigger Tbars and Sbars, then we have no, or very little suspension movement and ride suffers along with grip on rough roads.
dont ask how low my car is
i would like to raise it a little, but i had it balanced a while back and i dont want to mess with it right now.

[Flat Six]

Originally Posted by joefrantz

Having just set the ride height on my own car, I'd like to make a few observations.

If you look at the link offered in post #1, the second picture in the second post of the linked thread shows the car, on a lift, sitting on its tires. There is a guy (cbeers?) sitting under the car.

Notice that the front suspension arms are sitting just about level. As I understand it, this is the max that the front of the car can be lowered without inviting shock travel and suspension geometry problems. There are a number of threads describing the details of this issue.

If the car is at the recommended 1 degree of rake, then it follows that the rear is also at its lowest height. Any lower in the rear will produce less rake. Any higher, more rake.

Again, it is my understanding that going any lower safely will require raised spindles and probably shortened shocks.

The fender height measurement is only an approximation for describing ride height. You really can't separate ride height from suspension geometry and tire size. The best way to measure it is by using the factory method of spindle height vs tbar height.

At the current suspension settings, you could go lower by changing to shorter diameter tires, but I doubt that is the intent, as it would open the gap between the fender and the tire

You can close the gap by fitting larger diameter tires, but then you're actually raising the car (and altering your final drive ratio).

+1 -- Spot on, Joe. Going any lower in front will invite bump steer issues.

[Wil Ferch]

Let's review some new-found numbers.

"Euro" is said to be 25.5" front/ 25" rear fender lip measurement ( center of wheel arch-to-ground, assuming normal wheels of about 24.9"-25" rolling diameter). Yields 1 degree forward/down slope.

Poster says the numbers are 25" in front, and 25 and 1/4 in the rear. So he has to have more than 1 degree rake.

I have found full tank gas vs empty to affect ride height by maybe 1/4-1/2"....so.... my suggestion would be to :

1.) look under the car now and see if the lower A-arms are flat...or angled down toward the wheel....or angled up toward the wheel. My money says flat or slightly angled up toward wheel.
2.) If "flat" or angled up toward the wheel....don't lower the rear to match the front. You will only match for looks on a situation that is non-ideal for front. If flat, raise the front by maybe only 1/4". Use the 11 mm vertical hex screw on either side of the front cross-member, near the rear of each of the front torsion bars. Turn "clockwise" ( worms-eye-view). I turn = approx 1/4".

[Wil Ferch]

Here are some reference photos.....16 x 7" front Fuchs running 205/55-16 tires at about 25.5"+ front ride height. Yellow line shows lower A-arm ever-so-slightly angled downward toward wheel, red arrow shows adjustment hex.

[Flat Six]

Originally Posted by Wil Ferch

I have found full tank gas vs empty to affect ride height by maybe 1/4-1/2"

+1, Wil. Also correct tire pressures before ride height adjustment (FWIW, I'm 29F / 34R).

Dale

[juanbenae]

i am familar with that car....... and the deck..... that deck has been on three cars i know of including mine. chris is already missing it. be careful though, petaluma PD knows that car,,,, ask chris and his driving record :8 )

[Wil Ferch]

car311 ......

???????

[DRACO A5OG]

If you raise the front, I might add that it will lose some negative camber.

I would check the camber before raising and raise 1/4" to match the rears for that aggressive 1 degree rake then check the camber to see how much changed and adjust if you want her to handle the same.

+1, raising the front will be heck of allot easier.

[umfan866]

Guys - Wow never expected so much detailed info! BTW those nicely Polished Fuchs on the car now are 7 & 8 's x 16's, and for going to autocross and the track Chris gave me a set of 7 & 8's x 15's.

Hey car311 - the deck - do you mean the roll cage that came with the car?

The guy in the picture in the first link is Roger Kraus, from Roger Kraus racing. Chris did the suspension himself and then had Roger check the alignment (which was correct) and do the corner balance. I found all the summary sheets/specs for that balance in the files (yahoo!!) and I will post what it was at the time, it even says who was in the car during balancing etc.

I am willing to bet that indeed, removing the roll cage last week caused the back to come up that 1/4 inch- it sure is heavy. I need to put both my boys (5 and 8) in the back, maybe me in the front, and have my wife do some measuring, on a super-level surface. As well as look at the underside at note what Wil points out as well as see where those adjuster screws are.

THanks! Marvin.

[cbeers]

Marvin,

It's been a loooong time since I've been on Pelican so I've missed your posts on my car, but it seems you are enjoying it and that's 95% of ownership. I do miss it and seeing the picture of it was kind of a gut punch, but it's fine

Combining threads here, but here are some comments:

Start up - turn the key, start the motor and drive away after a few seconds, as in 5-10, keep the revs under 3500 until warm.

Shut down - I always let it idle about 15-20 seconds and found that I never got a puff of smoke at start up. This was more for vanity than anything else as these engines often emit a SMALL puff at start up. Idling allowed the oil to get back to the tank in the fender as much as possible.

Driving - I kept it above 3k while cruising (downhill I'd let it go lower, but that's it) and EVERY day hit readline at least once. It's just too much fun to miss out on that. Now, I was not a traffic light burn out king by any means, but once into second gear I'd run it to redline and hit 3rd. Then back off so the aforementioned police didn't get too hot for pulling me over Also agree with driving it for long enough to get it truly warm. For short trips use the minivan.

Clutch - This is a NEW, fully redone clutch. I mean everything so no issues there. The issues are with your skills, which need work, even on a G-50 (ducking for cover ). I don't say that to be mean, just stating my observations when test driving with you. Once you get smooth there is no issue at all and you can move onto to heel-toe downshifting which is a lot of fun, and effective when tracking the car etc.

Highbeams - I noticed this too, but rarely drove the car at night so it wasn't much of an issue. I thought we talked about this but if not my apologies. I have read about the fix, as well as replacement, and neither seem too tough, just waaay low on my list back then.

There was a comment about changing brake fluid and I agree. Mine was changed several times per year for every track day, just because I didn't want any thoughts about condition of fluid in my mind while on the track. Serious overkill perhaps but cheap and easy to do. You have SS lines on that car, and they should get changed out at some point since you can't inspect the rubber parts of the lines, but considering I changed the OEM lines, they are likely fine. Again, for peace of mind vs cost.

Gas lines are new from tank to tunnel and tunnel to engine.

Suspension - I set it like that on purpose and as mentioned it is aggressive for street but not crazy. that is Brandon in the pictures, not Roger by the way. It was set with me in the seat so likely very close to your size/weight. Does the bar change it a bit? sure, but are you really extracting full potential of the car? You see where I am going.....until you are maxing out the car's set up there really is no reason to change things unless it's for looks. That car is rock solid on the track and has more to give than I could as a driver. Unless you are naturally gifted this will be the case for you too, just drive it and work on being a better driver before you spend $$ for things you don't need. Again, all just my opinion but these cars are amazing and very capable during track/AX duty, let alone driving on a public highway.

As always, feel free to give me a call with questions, I am more than happy to help out.

-Chris

[umfan866]

Chris-- It's great to see you on the forums still! I am having a blast with the car. Since you had it I've put on shark fins and put shoulder belst in the rear for the boys, but not much else. Have not put the chip in yet, the new interior, or anything. I did manage to break the right side lock by having a key made it was a little rough and bingo - now I have to fix the right lock (will make a separate post on that, don't be surprised). I almost have 3k miles more now, so I have stopped driving it for a while. I have some personalized plates coming in the mail. I will make a point to call you and come up to Petaluma! I also realized after this post that the car got balanced with the massive role bar in there and if I put it back in it'd be perfect, just for now leaving the bar out until I get into racing, so my boys can go for joy rides with me.

OK take care!!!!

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Does it have red seat belts?

[cbeers]

Hey Shaun!

Negative, ended up getting those to another Pelican after realizing I had made a ding dong call about my stockers being broken. I am lame, often.

It has red harnesses for the track though if that matters

Glad to see you are still around, I hope to be back in the saddle someday but for now am enjoying being a new dad etc.

-Chris

[Shaun @ Tru6]

[aston@ultrasw.c]

If the previous owner had the car corner balanced then leave it alone, unless you wish to check/adjust CB after you mess with the height.

[Carl83911]

According to my Forza Motorsport III tuning calculator.