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at least it has gas and oil in it - that's a big step... :) |
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So yes I believe you'll have to move a few pins in your 14 pin '74 chassis connector. Alternately you could make a jumper conversion cable between the chassis connector and "extra" engine 14 pin connector. I suggest getting the pin out diagram for your '74 connector and the pin out diagram for your 964 engine. Adjust pins as necessary. Once your wires are straight your starter should start crankin'! When you turn the key - with the PMS harness and the 964 DME harness installed - once the DME sees the engine spinning at a certain RPM from the starter it'll send signals for fuel and spark. |
I think the starter relay is a yellow lead on the 14 pin connector.
Use a test light and a friend to find which lead at the 14 pin connector (chassis side) lights up with the starter position on the key. From there find the lead on the engine side which you've attached to the starter relay. Another common problem is to wire the DME computer off from a terminal at the fuse box which turns off under start. IE the radio turns off under start, probably headlights, too. The DME will have power, except under cranking. Make sure you don't do that. This problem has been highlighted in many threads. When I think back to my install, I bought a new 14 pin connector, dissassembled the chassis side and moved many of the pins, checking each one with its partner on the engine side. I think several ended up in different positions. Engine sensors like temp, alternator energizer, of course, starter relay are all on that 14 pin connector. Others, disabled are also on there (I think), are the heater blower motor. Doug |
My '77 chassis 14 pin connector currently only uses the following pins with my '91 3.6 engine:
1, 5, 9, 11, 4, 6 Here's a pinout pic of an '81 connector to be attached to a '91 engine: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1315835450.jpg My 14 pin connectors. One goes to the DME harness the other goes to the chassis harness: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1315835506.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1315835792.jpg |
Notice, I had some trouble getting the pins correct. :D I think the photo shows the engine connector. Like Scott, I only used 5 (or six) of the pins.
Printout: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1315837044.jpg Testing process: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1315837156.jpg |
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I made the mistake Doug mentions in the first quoted paragraph. It took me a few frustrating days of troubleshooting to find it. I posted a thread on it too. I also bought a new 14 Pin connector and rewired the chassis side to mate w/the engine side cleanly. I spent some time w/wiring diagrams from '74 & '90 and a multi meter to make sure everything was where it should be. I'm assuming you have the wiring diagram for the Patrick conversion harness too which is pretty easy to follow (except one wire - see first paragraph!) You're getting good advice from Doug & Scott here - they covered everything I was going to suggest. Tom |
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Alright I have some ammo now... Silly of me to assume that buying a 3.6 conversion harness meant that it was all I needed... |
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Crank at the key and make sure you still have power to the DME at the fuse panel under crank. If not, move to an open one that does. If you see the above photos of my 14 pin connector, I'm almost certain yellow is the starter relay. You'll notice it is of larger gauge than those feeding sensors like temp and oil pressure. Doug |
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Tom |
Doug is quicker than me! At least we're telling you the same thing!!!
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Thanks - I'm feeling a little better about this.
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I'll just reinforce the pin switching for fun. When I worked on a 3.2 going back into a '78 (because we had a 3.6 coming out of a '78 going into an '88 3.2), we had to move pins on the 14 pin harness. I remember vividly that Timmon's instructions saying the red #2 needed to be moved or disconnected or something, otherwise it would "backfeed" the system. Well the eager goofball named einreb who can't read directons just hooked up the 14 pin and turned the key to see what would happen. A ground wire behind the instrument panel decided to release it's magic smoke..... :D
Definitely make sure you've got all the wires going where they should be, before hooking up the battery and keying her on! |
helpful post here
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success - I used the fuse for the air blower - heated rear window - that doesn't go "dead" on crank.
woo woo - I'm a happy camper now. |
that was simple :D
when do you fire it up for the first time? You can double check your gauge connections by either grounding the gauge wire at the engine or using a rheostat and checking gauge sweep (at least for oil pressure and temp). Doug |
about 15 minutes ago
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how's it sound? Any test drives in the near future?
Doug |
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3.6 fire up for the first times - YouTube |
Awesome!
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I like it! Congrats
Doug |
Very Cool. nothing like the first fire of a motor when building a new project.
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Hey - my alternator is not working - not showing a charge - do I have to get the single pulley conversion for the upper fan too? just bought the lower single pulley
I have this - http://www.patrickmotorsports.com/im...CRPUEA-18k.jpg do I need this to make sure my alternator works?? V Looks like just the fan is spinning now... Patrick Motorsports - PMP 36FAN-HUB FAN DRIVE HUB ENGINE CONVERSION 3.6L 3.8L RS RSR ALTERNATOR SINGLE BELT DRIVE PULLEY PORSCHE 911 |
Single or dual pulley doesn't matter on the charge, did you take a volt meter and confirm the no charge? I don't remember doing anything special for the Alt when I did my 3.6 conversion.
oops, I see since you did the single lower pully change, then yes you do need the single upper conversion. |
Oh the glorious sound of an engine's first start!!!!
I have a Patrick crank pulley and a Rothsport fan pulley - not sure why I ended up w/that combo but anyway. . . My alternator light on the dash/gauge comes on when I first start it up. As soon as I rev it past 2K, it goes out for good. Per KTL's post above - when I first wired everything up, I had that issue w/the red wires at the 14 Pin connector. I didn't disconnect them and back fed the system. My gauges and lights were all funky. Fortunately, there was no apparent damage and when I finally disconnected them, it was all good. Tom |
Awesome, Jeremy....beautiful sights & sounds!
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My 3.6 conversion does the same thing, the light stays on until the car has hit 2k rpm once and then it is out til I start the car again.
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Per Patrickmotorsports - you need the top hub (that they sell, obviously) with the single pulley lower - to keep the shaft stable = otherwise the fan moves - but the alternator does not {because the fan is on a bearing that slides onto the alternator shaft}
I knew it wasn't charging because #1 I have a voltage gauge in place of the oil level gauge - and #2 I have a voltage determined red led light on my dash that signals anything under 12 volts (which would indicate a broken belt and a no charge situation) |
and yes, I try and follow KTL's advice - and made sure I disconnected the red #2 wire so I didn't get feedback. In fact - I pulled all the lines off that I didn't use and capped them off - I'm surprised my car ran to tell you the truth with the 2.7 - the T30 14 prong plug was pretty corroded. now all updated with marine grade wiring and heat shrink. I may look for a 6 prong plug that I can connect and disconnect easily - just used 6 bullet connections from harness to harness.
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Couple of resources for the engine pin / chassis harness for those that follow this course in the future
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/613825-help-please-another-1973-3-2l-implant.html http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1308182597.jpg Yes you do need both the top and bottom pulleys to make the alternator work. Patrick has good stuff - but their customer service blows. Check out rothsport - good stuff. The conversion is not really too bad - it's all the supporting stuff that makes it a pain in the butt (and takes up alot of time) probably set me back 2-3 weeks messing with the fuel line upgrades and moving the pump (but len cummings makes replacement fittings and lines - good stuff) Wiring is another - probably could have cobbeled together something - but no - everything has to be marine grade, heat shrunk, etc... Third thing is the transmission - changing from the mag case - to a carrera 915 - with a cooler - LSD - etc. change drive shafts and then adding some WEVO bits - added to the expense - and the time. Hopefully it will all be worth it in the long run... |
This might belong in another thread...but what 915 strengthening options can be made to work with the factory euro trans cooler? I have one from an '84 and also have the 108mm flanges. But nothing else had been done to beef up the 915.
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If you open it up - put the one piece bearing retainer.
Without opening it up - put provisions for a cooler and at least the side plate. The billet side plate uses (typically depending on mfg) 930 bearings (which a much meatier than the 911 varient) You want to stop the side from deflecting under acceleration. Also adding a LSD can help too - but it adds a little heat ~ 10 -20 degrees was quoted to me. Sooooooo... with my research - and talking to people that are smarter than me = I added a provision for cooling (wevo shift plate pick up and temp sender) wevo side plate - with 930 bearings. AN fitting on top of the differential cover - AND a tilton pump and big a cooler fitted to my decklid. pump http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1315359390.jpg cooler and lines can be seen here http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1316022313.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1317184855.jpg Wevo goodness http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1309186796.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1310052335.jpg |
Those wevo parts sure look nice! It's hard to tell from the pics if the pump is isolated from the body (rubber mounted). I'm going to assume you did but if not you will want to.
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Jeremy is changing his Avatar to "King of Overkill":D He actually does everything right, but then just does it better!!! |
HA HA - sickness really -
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OK - just to close this out.
The car is back on the road - have a few minor items to sort out - but should be able to knock out in a reasonable amount of time. From my other thread on the car - more information here; http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/529220-well-here-she-30.html reflecting back - this is a pretty big job. Probably more to do with me stripping the engine down to clean and change some of the seals. Like John said - the 3.6 engines really should be stripped down to the case and resealed. And actually there is quite a bit of truth to this. There are two spots where it is leaking a little oil - both on the cam covers - the seals that I did not replace - where the covers join at the side of the case. really cause I didn't want to have to re time the cams. Still, I'm glad I changed the seals that I did change. I'll have to live with an odd drip. In reflection - I really set up the car when I redid last year - suspension wise, brake wise and cooling wise. Even then - I didn't replace the fuel lines and relocate the fuel pump - both turned into bigger jobs as I had to remove a majority of the front suspension to get to them. Even though I read a fair amount - I was unprepared regarding the engine harness to chassis harness - Figured you buy the conversion harness from Patrick - that's what you need - right? Also regarding the alternator - if you go with the single pulley conversion - with the early car engine tin and carrier - you still need the single alternator pulley. Right now I'm still figuring the engine oil temp sender (gauges have early sender, engine has later dual pole) and speedometer - had to convert to later electronic version... of course with no wiring harness. SO anyway - it's in - and running - EDIT - ended up running a separate line for the oil thermostat line - the other one kept shorting out and giving false readings. I also changed out the thermostat to an older style - so the pressure no longer reads twice the actual. |
Jeremy -
Congrats on getting it running and back on the road. I'd agree w/you - it is a big job. Lots of little details that add up sucking time & $$. I converted to an electric speedo too. I ran 2 new wires from the dash, to the rear of the center tunnel where they connect to the speedo sensor wires; stock-like I think. Not too bad to do. After driving my car all summer, I still have some little things to sort out. It will never end - but then again, what would I do with all the extra free time and money if it did end? : ) Tom |
Great project and I've been watching all along. I am on a similar path, although my '72 is getting prepped on a rotisserie in my garage before I send it out for paint. I put what I think are the finishing touches on my 3.6 this weekend, bolting up the PMS flywheel, etc. I'm sure I will have some things to do when I start trial fitting the motor / tranny since they will both be new to my chassis...working out the kinks with airbox/air filter clearance, engine mount spacers, factory trans cooler, second fender mount oil cooler, fuel lines, etc etc etc.
Not trivial. But at least you've built a great reference for me and future 3.6 installs. Thanks! |
Don't forget that you knocked out a chunk the project when you added the second oil cooler the previous go-around.
I upgraded to the Hargett cam covers and still get leaks there. those are frustrating to solve. My 3.2 never leaked. The 964 cover design seems a great improvement, yet in practice it doesn't seem to work the way they should (in preventing leaks). Doug |
My 3.2 was bone dry - my mag case 2.7 never dropped any oil - but my 964 c2 targa leaked like a sieve - go figure...
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Sub for info
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