3.6 Engine - What should I do to it before plugging it in
 

I have a 3.6 on the way -

I plan on installing some headers - removing the fresh air box - getting rid of the stock air cleaner and putting on a cone filter. (because the stock will not fit)

I also plan on removing the power steering pump and installing a block off plate.

SO - what else should I do while I have the engine out??

If you don't have much history on the motor, I'd do all other normal service items. Plugs, plug wires, caps and rotors. Did you go with a conversion kit from one of the usual suspects?

Jeremy -

Congrats on moving forward w/a 3.6L! I am on the home stretch of my own 3.6L install. W/out knowing exactly what you've got coming or what pieces and parts you have, I'll make a quick list of what I had to do to install a '90 3.6L into my '74 911.

In no particular order:

Engine Mounting
- you might need some different length studs to attach the transmission.
- what rear engine mount and cross bar are you using? I used one from a 3.2L, not the 964 and needed different length studs here too.

Fuel Connections
- I ditched the accumulator from my 2.7L CIS motor.
- Supply: The fuel supply on my 3.6L goes to the right front side of the motor. You may need to have a line fabricated to run from there to the rear left of the engine compartment & maybe some metric connector/adapters depending on what you currently have.
- Return: The return should be close location wise. You may need an adapter here too?

Oil
- You may need an oil adapter pipe to connect to the "S" hose.
- If you don't have one, you will need the "?" shaped oil line that goes under the front of the motor and eventually to the thermostat.
- You may want to go with a breather/overflow tank to vent the oil tank instead of dumping all that hot air right into the engine intake.
- The breather hose (engine case breather to oil tank) from my 2.7L fit fine.

Electrical
- I'd highly recommend the kit from Patrick Motorsports. My engine came with 'most' of the kit and it sure would have been easier if it came with all of it!
- Drill a hole in the rear firewall for the elect. harness.
- My car didn't have a computer and my seats are lowered so I had to get creative on how to run the elect. harness and where to mount the DME etc...
- Fabricate a place to mount the coils.
- I removed the rear elect. panel in its entirety. Kind of a pain to work all that out, but make it cleaner and easier in the long run (I hope!).

Other
- Engine sheet metal: you may have to fab a piece in the right rear to fill in where the power steering pump was.
- Block off for the power steering pump.
- I did a single fan belt conversion. Depending on the type of engine mount you use, this may or may not be necessary.
- Exhaust: I am using the Fabspeed w/heat headers and am going to try a MagnaFlow muffler. I had a friend make some pieces for the headers-to-muffler connection (easy enough he didn't charge me) and he'll help w/the tail pipes too which should be straight forward. I don't know about sound levels yet. My fingers are crossed, but I'm prepared to monkey with this for a while. . .
- Accellerator: I spent a bunch of time fabbing a cable and standoff system that attached to the bellcrank on the transmission like the stock '74 system. I am not happy with it for 2 reasons: It's way too stiff w/parasitic drag and the pedal travel is too short. I lengthened the arm on the bellcrank and followed a previously posted 'blueprint' but I'm not happy with it. I just rec'd a 964 throttle cable and am going to give that a try next.
- While you've got access to the engine, you may want to check that the distributor belt looks new, adjust the valves etc...
- You'll need a block off plate for the fan shroud if you remove the heat option.

I'm sure I've left stuff out, but that's what is coming to mind at the moment.

Tom

If a 993 motor it has hydraulic lifters but if sourced from a 964 they are still mechanical. Adjust the valves while out of the car it,s a lot easier. Also replace rear seal as it,s cheap when out.

Thanks for the replies - It's a 964 based engine - so I'll check the valves while I have it out.

I'll also check distributors/wires/etc.

I had a magnaflow on my last car with B & B headers - I have a set of B & B with heat coming

i'm tempted to say reseal it from the case out, but i won't. you can do that later. :)

Thanks John - yeah I'll do that when I take it up to a 3.8... :)

964 runs a factory harmonic balancer on the crank pulley. Some say you can convert to a simpler drive pulley. This will allow you to run the back dated rear engine cross member. Especially, since you remove significant mass without the dual mass clutch assembly and flywheel, it seems plausible. Patrick Motorsports and Rennsport (the guys up in the PNW with the killer ITB setup) have crank pulleys for the 964 application.

It is a cleaner install than modifying the clunky 964 cross member.

Also, I used an RS style pulley on the alternator / fan drive. The hot setup is to convert to the flat belt style alternator / fan drive - clewett makes one of those. I chose not to drop the ~ $500 - ish on that belt system, but it is cool.

I really like the black nylon braided hose. It is much easier to deal with than the braided stainless. I found it about the same price, but more flexible and more OEM looking. BAT-inc has the hose end to fuel rail adaptor.

Doug

Jeremy -
Do you have the motor yet? Could you take a photo of the throttle cable stop on the throttle body for me?

see: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/610293-need-photo-engine-throttle-cable-stop-964-3-6l-engine.html

Thanks,
Tom

Should be here today - I'll be happy to take any pictures you need Tom - you have been gracious in helping me.

That'd be great. As far as being gracious - I only know enough to be dangerous! I've picked up a lot of tips here, so I try to pay it forward by posting comments when I think they might be helpful.

I thought of a few more things last night to add to my list above:

- The 'S' hose may have some clearance issues with your B&B headers. It's pretty close to my Fabspeed headers which I plan to wrap in some header wrap to keep as much of the heat away from the hose as possible. I may also fab some kind of 'support' to keep the 'S' hose from sagging too close as well. I think B&B makes a special metal replacement for the typical rubber 'S' hose that you may want to look into.

- I bought a cool carbon RS heat tube from MaxSpeed Motorsports to get hot air from the fan shroud through the rear tin. It looks great, but does not fit. The bend/angle is off enough that it would require significant glass work to make it work. Also, when I test fit the engine in my car, I found that the motor mount interfered with the fit as well. $200+ bucks down the drain. It does look cool though. I think I will end up either fabbing some thin wall alum. pipe or going with some SCAT type hose to get heat. I really like the RS heat tube look and was trying to avoid having SCAT hose in the engine compartment - but I'm getting sick of working out the bugs and just want to get my car back on the road!

- I started fitting the 964 throttle cable yesterday and ran into a few things I hadn't thought of. I was running the stock solid throttle rod in the tunnel which I had to cut out because the stop for the hand throttle lever was stuck on the rod. What a PITA. So, I will lose the hand throttle w/the 964 cable. While it's not necessary, I did use it as a sort of cruise control once in a while as my car is w/out that option. (I know, dangerous!). I also worked out a good cable housing stop for the rear of the tunnel. I'm hoping to have some time today to work on it & will take pics when it's done.

I'm sure I'll think of more. . .

Tom

engine is here:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306289524.jpg

pictures of the throttle
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306289636.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306289702.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306289762.jpg

Looks great!

There is a plastic clip missing on the throttle shaft connection. It fits into that rectangular hole on the end of the throttle shaft. This is the bracket with the slot which is front and center in the bottom picture.

EDIT:
the 993 engine uses a different throttle connection, unless the cable you've shown is for cruise control? I'll post a picture.

This is the 993 throttle connection. You can see the same brackets, but with the plastic insert:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306293177.jpg

Yeah - I need to get a bently book or something for the 964 engine.

Jeremy -

I just sent you a PM.

That looks like a later engine than mine as it's got the black plastic intake. Mine has metal runners. It looks clean!

Doug is correct, you are missing the black plastic piece that acts as the throttle cable stop:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306335713.jpg

That mechanism on the throttle body w/the cable is the cruise control I think & what I labeled as the throttle cable stop is really the throttle cable HOUSING stop.:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306335791.jpg

Can you take one more photo for me from the front (flywheel side) of the motor of the throttle cable housing stop? It's looks like it attaches to the throttle body w/3 phillips head screws? Mine just uses 2 screws. I fabricated one yesterday (mine was missing) an would like to make sure it's at least close to the factory dimensions etc... It's hard to tell from your photos.

Thanks so much!

Tom

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306337334.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306337344.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306337353.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306337363.jpg

Hopefully this helps... :)

Thanks Jeremy, it does help. It looks different than mine - your's has a lot more 'stuff' back there!

Tom

Definitely plug the throttle body port/fitting for the oil tank vent. Run a catch can instead. No reason to send oil or oil vapor into your intake when you're running wide open on the track. Catch can is easy to install with some cloth braid hose and misc fittings. Catch cans are around $60-$70 for a nice aluminum one with baffles, petcock and gauze filter hat on it

I would also agree with the suggestion to use the crescent-shaped oil-out line from the early ('74 and older?) cars. The braided line from B&B is nice but you can route the oil path better with the crescent-shaped hard line.

The Patrick Motorsports 3.6 conversion throttle cable solution is the way to go. It works very well.

Jeremy, I wish you only the best on this. I know it will be right when you are finished (not to mention Woore Out!). I like what someone said about the belts and Pulleys to keep the rear mount the same. K.I.S.S. the simpler the better. Once done then you can make all of the modifications you want when you feel like it! I cannot wait to see how it turns out! How much time are you giving yourself? 3 months?

Thanks - yes, I am eager to get this motor cleaned up a little - by that I mean all the hoses and miscellaneous emissions garbage I can remove.

Yes. plan on doing a catch can and the cresent shaped hard line. I'm a little intrigued (challenged) on the throttle cable end.

YOu know me - I like figuring things out.

Do the 964 fuel lines go bad like the Carerra Fuel lines? They sure look similar

Have you decided if you're going to run a modified 964 engine crossmember or are you going to delete the 964 harmonic balancer and go with a backdated engine crossmember/console?

While I was gathering conversion parts for my own 964 engine I was discussing this issue with experts around the USA. Basically the answers were split 50/50. Some said go ahead and delete the balancer and some said leave it alone.

I ended up deleting the balancer and going with a Rothsport single pulley setup. This allowed me to backdate the engine crossmember/console/tin and install the engine with no spacers between the crossmember and chassis.

Here's mine in progress. Mods include PMS engine tins and throttle cable, SW chip, 993 HE's, cone filter, and Rothsport single pulley. The low end torque is incredible and the top end is nice too!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306407733.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306408079.jpg

SO the normal crossmember and engine carrier bolt up as long as you have room (with the dual pulley/harmonic balancer changed to a regular one)

Yes pre-3.6 parts bolt up. I suggest using 3.2 parts but any of them will work. The key is a Rothsport or PMS crank pulley. You could even combine the 964 tins with 3.2 tins (cutting and welding) to make a nice set of tins for your '74

do you have to do the cone filter or can you use the stock filter and cut the housing back some?

Another way of saying this is you can take everything off your 2.7 engine and install it on the 3.6 engine! With the Rothsport or PMS crank pulley.

Either works. My engine came with a cone filter so I used that.

Thanks Scott - one less added expense - and I like the stock filter

The stock filter will hang up on the arm for the rear deck lid hinge, at least for the '95 993 engine. I think the layout is extremely similar. You can hack the box lid to make it fit. I chose to run a cone filter. Some have cut and welded the trunklid arm to clear.

Doug

The PMS throttle cable looks really nice, but it is expensive ($289): Patrick Motorsports - PMP 911-964-993TC THROTTLE CABLE CONVERSION KIT PORSCHE 911 930 CHASSIS TO 964 993 3.6L DME MOTRONIC ENGINE CONVERSION

For $50 and a little fabrication you can use the Lokar universal cable setup. I'm sure you saw the pictures I provided in my conversion thread.

This also looks really nice, but again pricey ($248). Patrick Motorsports - PKG OIL BRE SYS-911-914 BREATHER SYSTEM ENGINE OIL TANK OR CRANKCASE VENTILATION SYSTEM FOR PORSCHE 911 AND 914 CONVERSIONS

I know you can contact Peterson directly and buy one of their beautiful oil catch cans for about $120. Just fab up the rest. That clamp is about $12 from McMaster.com Peterson Fluid Systems : Oil Tank Accessories - they'll put whatever AN fitting on the can that you want. I think was going to use -12 with an AN conversion to a 5/8 or 3/4 nipple. Currently, I run the factory style breather into the intake.

Doug

Scott,

Is the factory crank bolt and pulley/balancer in need of a special tool to remove? I sort of recall that from one of CBRacer X (Chris') posts one time. The conversion I was involved with was pbs911's '78 SC Targa that was bought to pirate the conversion and put it in a '88 Carrera (einreb) who then sold it to the fella who backdated it with TRE..... can't remember his name. So the project I participated in was a 3.6 already converted by Paul Sopp (pbs911) so we didn't have to diddle with that crank pulley deal or the engine suspension. We just ransacked the Targa of everything we needed and threw it in the '88.

I'll agree 100% the torque increase is VERY apparent. When the car hauler delivered the car to my house, I had no choice but to take it for a ride before putting it in the garage. Oh man did that thing pull so much harder than my '87 3.2. Jeremy's '74 is going to be a whole new animal.

JD,

I'd consider having the fuel lines done by Amazon again. Same deal with rubber hose and crimp collars. The crimps are better but the hose is the same Cohline stuff used on the Carreras. Age will make it start to crack- especially ones with a tight bend like that picture above near the vaccuum diaphragm.

The stock air box is the same deal with your '87- chop the face off the lid and run the open filter element. The stock filter has a lot more surface area than most cone filters

I'm undecided about the engine tins. They're not really necessary from a cooling standpoint. A lot of dedicated race cars run without them. My own car only had the side pieces and it runs plenty cool at 210 max. But the big feature of the tins is keeping the engine bay clean. My engine bay gets really dirty without the front and rear pieces. So I scrounged up a piece of rear fiberglass tin to cut down on the dirt. Felt it was important since I run carbs which hate dirt.

Breather tanks are easy to plumb. Cheap = good enough and even then "cheap" is relative. I used this one

Breather Tank

and got some brass fittings from the hardware store to allow me to clamp a section of 3/4" ID braided cloth hose to it. Joe's also makes a nice "cheap" one

JOES Race Car Dry Sump Breather Tank

Thanks for the responses! I really like the ideas here.

You know me Kevin - especially if I can do it on the cheap...

Do any of you see a disadvantage of combing the metal S pipe that traditionally goes from the on engine oil cooler to the tank and the 964 engine tube that is produced for conversions??

I am thinking with Amazon at my disposal here - I could get a 30mm to -16 adapter - then do a hard line (with a few bendy sections for engine vibrations) that would go from the case all the way back to the tank. One hose - Thoughts?

combine this http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1130986091.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1130989140.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131027529.jpg

????????

I've never really been a big fan of that B&B hard line. Not sure why, because I certainly like the idea of a hard line instead of a rubber line at that location (due to heat). However the metal line seems like it would absorb heat even more, which is not something you want. I think you can get away with using the factory S hose from the old cars and protect it with a fabric heat sleeving.

McMaster-Carr

I used a section of the above stuff on my S-hose to protect it from the nearby OBX header pipe on my 3.2

What kind of connection at the engine are you thinking? The typical one has been a hard pipe welded onto an adapter fitting. That works, but it's kind of sloppy. Rothsport and JB Racing and SmartRacing make some nice adapter tubes.

Welcome to Rothsport Racing - Engine Products

(oil pipe linky no worky of course....... :rolleyes: )

JB Racing - Porsche Engine Components Have to scroll down a bit to get to the engine fittings

http://www.smartracingproducts.com/pdfcat/srp2009_engine_fuel.pdf Go down to page 9


All my suggestions are unfortunately a bit spendy (except protecting the S-hose with some fiberglass sleeve....... ;) )

However you could use the JB Racing or SmartRacing AN adapter fitting at the case and then use braided hose to get back to the tank. Problem is you need to adapt the hose to be clamp-on at the existing tank fitting, or convert the tank fitting to AN with a welded on adapter.

I used the Rothsport oil tube with my 993 HE's. Rothsport makes some REALLY nice parts!

http://www.rothsport-racing.com/Prod...let1-Small.jpg

This was a concern of mine before I got started. I was told that yes there is a special Porsche tool but most often it's not needed.

So I removed the crank bolt and started to wiggle the pulley/balancer off the crank. Mine came off easily but it had also been removed fairly recently for an engine rebuild.

I'd say try and take it off like any other pulley and see what happens. If it turns out to be stuck on the crank then look up how to make the DIY version of the Porsche tool (I think it's in the Rennlist 964 forum). Alternately if you're not trying to save the OE pulley/balancer for anything then you can use heat on the pulley/balancer to help expand it off the crank. Keep in mind heat will probably destroy the rubber section of the pulley/balancer.

What am I missing from the harness? DME Fuel relay? It's nice that I have the engine fuse/relay box.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1306776303.jpg

Very interesting.. Good luck with your pending install....subscribed

Looks good Jeremy....Now that will complete your IROC. :D

B & B headers are here - I'm thinking of going ahead with the 964 throttle cable and modifying it.

SO anybody have a picture of a DME box installed under the seat? I still think I am missing a 2nd connector for the fuel pump relay.