Experts.. what would you do? Engine?

[Walter_Middie]

911lvr,

You're getting a lot of good advice here, so I hesitate to add my $0.02 worth. If it were my motor and I found it wasn't the original motor, and it was pulling a couple of head studs out of the block, I would not update the chain tensioners or put new chains on. But putting new chains and sprockets on is certainly good advice - you'll have to decide if the cost is worth it for you.

If you do decide to pull apart the cam chains, the cam timing is fairly simple, you are just measuring the amount of lift at piston TDC, but on the intake stroke (180 deg from TDC) on cylinder #1 for the left side and #4 for the right side.

Don't worry about the cam timing. Its easier than it looks. Once you do a couple its no big deal. Forget about marking the cams and forget about the flywheel lock. It won't work.

I agree - the instructions say to not let the cams move when timing, but I think that is way over rated. You can set the timing by trial and error much easier than trying to hold the cams from moving and setting them once. Either way you have to roll the engine over and re-check your work anyway. If you have to try it a couple of times to get it right, it only takes a couple of extra minutes. And not fretting over a little movement while tightening the sprocket nut is much easier than trying to hold everything from moving.

[911pcars]

Compression test? Not really?

This question has been asked several times with no response other than "will test after engine is running".

If you haven't followed the above basic suggestion, why go through this routine of the previous 6 pages? Do you really need this much attention for your DIY hobby project?

I'll not clutter up the thread with more responses. Best wishes.

Sherwood

[911lvr]

Yes I certainly am getting plenty of good advice. Its great to learn from people that have been thru it before. no sense in reinventing the wheel. I think where we are having conflicting opinions is because my engine is not 100% and is not going to be this time around. So people have varying opinions of what has to be done and what doesn't. I guess drawing the line is the tough part. in a perfect world everything would get fixed correctly and done now.

I really do appreciate everyone's advice and assistance as I go thru this process. Its nice to have such a great community of car lovers here willing to help. Im on a sport bike board and they rip people up every chance they get. So thanks to all and keep the information coming. It cant be to much.

[911lvr]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

Compression test? Not really?

This question has been asked several times with no response other than "will test after engine is running".

If you haven't followed the above basic suggestion, why go through this routine of the previous 6 pages? Do you really need this much attention for your DIY hobby project?

I'll not clutter up the thread with more responses. Best wishes.

Sherwood

im sorry if I offended you in some way. Can you explain how I would do a valid compression test without the engine running? If there is some way of doing it I will be happy to. This engine has never run since i owned it. So providing the information requested has not been possible with the knowledge I have.

to answer your question, no I dont need attn. Im just trying to make sense of the information given and do the best I can with my skillset and the tools I have. Im really not sure how I slighted you.

[911Freak]

Performing a compression test ASAP is advisable as it can possible expose a condition that would take priority over anything else.

What if you found Low to Zero compression on one or more cylinders?

No use spending time on anything until that's addressed. Could be rings, valve seats etc etc.

Sherwood makes a valid point.

As you wait for parts and books to come in it would serve you well to get a compression test done and post the results.

The results could support your 'just get it together good enough and enjoy it' (which I think is a great idea, after a positive comp check) or could be a game changer/ender.

Why wait to find out?

Only takes a few minutes .

YMMV

[911lvr]

maybe im not making myself clear. Im absolutely willing to do one but short of cranking it over by hand with a ratchet I don't know how to get the results. I was told that this method I would not be able to spin the crank fast enough to get an accurate measurement. If someone can explain what I need to do I will. I don't want to waste peoples valuable time.

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by 911lvr

im sorry if I offended you in some way. Can you explain how I would do a valid compression test without the engine running? If there is some way of doing it I will be happy to. This engine has never run since i owned it. So providing the information requested has not been possible with the knowledge I have.

to answer your question, no I dont need attn. Im just trying to make sense of the information given and do the best I can with my skillset and the tools I have. Im really not sure how I slighted you.

Ok, I re-neged. You can't skip basic diagnosis steps unless you have a fat wallet and lots of time to waste. Do you have both? Many do. Just let us know so we can move along with your dream project. However, if you wish to do this with a minimum of wasted money and energy.........

A suspect engine does not have to run to test compression. This still can be performed even if the drivetrain is out of the chassis. However, you do need to mount the engine onto the gearbox so the starter can crank the engine. And you do need a fully charged battery and some HD jumper cables to run the starter.

Engine at operating temp. is preferable, but if cold, it's better than bypassing this basic step.

Yes, a leakdown test is fine too if a cylinder or two produces lower-than-normal compression results and you want to find out exactly the source of the compression loss.

Buying parts at this point is folly unless you plan to rebuild it anyway or are very optimistic about its condition.

Hope this helps,
Sherwood

[vintagecarlover]

put a battery to it, remove coil wire and turn the engine using the starter

[911lvr]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

Ok, I re-neged. You can't skip basic diagnosis steps unless you have a fat wallet and lots of time to waste. Do you have both? Many do. Just let us know so we can move along with your dream project. However, if you wish to do this with a minimum of wasted money and energy.........

A suspect engine does not have to run to test compression. This still can be performed even if the drivetrain is out of the chassis. However, you do need to mount the engine onto the gearbox so the starter can crank the engine. And you do need a fully charged battery and some HD jumper cables to run the starter.

Engine at operating temp. is preferable, but if cold, it's better than bypassing this basic step.

Yes, a leakdown test is fine too if a cylinder or two produces lower-than-normal compression results and you want to find out exactly the source of the compression loss.

Buying parts at this point is folly unless you plan to rebuild it anyway or are very optimistic about its condition.

Hope this helps,
Sherwood

Thank you it does help. Now I have some steps to follow to get the foundation information requested. I have to pull the engine off the stand and mate the transmission back up and install the starter before being able to accomplish this but I will do the check and let everyone know the results.

[dhagood]

forgive me if i restate the obvious, but it makes little sense to me (and perhaps to others as well) to spend money on new chains and new tensioners when you don't know the general condition of your engine. the car has not run since you've owned it, and you have evidence of poor maintenance and bad repair practices.

it might be that you have a bad cylinder due to a mechanical failure. it might be that you have all bad cylinders due to excessive heat, poor maintenance, hard usage, or other factors. if this is so, then spending additional money on the engine may not further your ultimate goal of getting the car running so you can enjoy it.

if the engine doesn't have relatively even compression across all 6 cylinders, the engine needs major repair. if the engine has decent compression but the leakdown rates are excessive on any cylinder, the engine needs expensive repair. given that the 2.7 liter engines require a lot of case work due to the magnesium engine cases, these engine are more expensive to repair than aluminum cased engines.

if i were in your shoes, the first thing i would do is determine whether or not it makes sense to continue trying to get your existing engine running. the compression/leakdown tests will help you determine the engine's overall state of health.

if you find that the engine is in generally decent mechanical shape, then buying chains and tensioners is justified. personally, i might be inclined to get it running and see what else the engine needs before i spent the money on chains and tensioners. you may find that the cis system needs a lot of work, or that the engine makes expensive noises when it runs (bad rod bearing, for example) and would then require expensive repair. once you're sure the engine is healthy, then it makes sense to spend money on chains, tensioners, and other items.

if it's not in decent shape, your decision tree is now different. rebuild what you have (then buying chains and tensioners make sense) or get another engine to put in the existing car (then buying chains and tensioners perhaps doesn't make sense).

i'm sorry if i come across as a pedantic *********, that is not my intent. if i had the money and the space, i'd love to be doing what you're doing. resurrecting old, tired porsches is very appealing to me, so i'm living vicariously through your experience.

good luck, this is an interesting project.

[Techne]

911lvr,

I just wanted to chime in to say I am enjoying your thread with the very good pictures and great responses from the Pelican community. None of what you are doing applies to me or my car directly, but I am finding it a good learning experience nonetheless. It is worth my time and attention.

So keep it up! And, I figured you could use some inspiration to tack on your wall until you actually start restoring it

Go back to green:

[gsmith660]

Its kind of hard to do a compression test with the motor out of the car and on a stand and even when cold the compression test only tells if there is something really bad which could have its advantages I do agree with the chains comment unless you plan on driving the car with this motor for several more years I would just tension the chains and go with what you have. This motor has been apart before so it might be a valid point that there are no studs pulling at all they just didn't seat those studs completely if they are taking torque I could make a case for there being no problems at all with those studs and you just need to watch them at every valve adjustment. There is nothing wrong with the 2.7 once the mods have been made and is worth a rebuild if you are not a horsepower junkie the 3.0 is a 930 bottom end and is very strong and has horsepower possibilities so it is to each his own.

[gsmith660]

Chains and tensioners or at least tentioners are an investment and can be moved to another motor or sold readily so not wasted money and is a lot easier to do now with the motor already on a stand than having to pull the motor out again but again its to each their own if the motor ends up being fine then its an expense to pull the motor and wasted money and a whole bunch of wasted oil I would do everything within reason while it is out that is needed and go from there but thats just me and I take gambles all the time that is why I slapped a turbo on a motor that has around I estimate 75000 miles on it.

[911lvr]

Originally Posted by Techne

911lvr,

I just wanted to chime in to say I am enjoying your thread with the very good pictures and great responses from the Pelican community. None of what you are doing applies to me or my car directly, but I am finding it a good learning experience nonetheless. It is worth my time and attention.

So keep it up! And, I figured you could use some inspiration to tack on your wall until you actually start restoring it

Go back to green:

Thanks..

That green is very nice!!

[911lvr]

Hello all, so do to family, work and traveling I have not really been able to work on the car much lately but today is the day to work on it. I got the engine off the stand, the trans mission mated back up and the starter attached. To today is compression check day. Fingers crossed on that one. I have to go to the store and buy a heavy duty battery charger so I dont destroy a brand new battery. I only have a trickle charger. once im back im going to try to see what the compression is. Wish me luck. all report back later today as i know a few people are interested.

[911lvr]

hmmm things are not going as planned today. I went to the store bought a good battery charger so I wouldn't destroy my brand new battery. I also got some new jumper cables(couldn't find mine) and went out to do the test. First thing I noticed is that the oring on my compression tester is dry rotten. no big deal I keep a supply on hand. got that taken care of. Took out all the plugs so the engine would turn over easier and then checked to see if the trans was in neutral. I turned the engine over by hand to make sure it was moving freely and it was. I screwed in the tester and then hooked up the battery/charger and then jumped the terminals. Here is the problem. The solenoid clicks loudly but the starter dose not turn over. im sure im doing something wrong but I cant seem to figure out what it is. any suggestions?? The starter worked before I took it out of the car so I don't think its a bad starter.

[911lvr]

I was looking thru my pics and apparently I dont have one of the starter wiring in place and unfortunately my service manuals have not arrived yet. anyone have a pic of the starter wired up.. I know its only 3 wires but I want to make sure im not doing something supremely stupid so I can rule it out..

thanks

[911lvr]

Never mind I got it sorted out.. bad connection on the ground. ok so the moment of truth compression check on a cold engine just using the starter and a battery to turn it over about 10-12 revolutions

1 - 90
2 - 88
3 - 88
4 - 60
5 - 110
6 - 90

so there you have it. 4 is on the way out as you can see, stretched timing chain...lots of effort... time to start drinking..

[911Freak]

Originally Posted by 911lvr

Never mind I got it sorted out.. bad connection on the ground. ok so the moment of truth compression check on a cold engine just using the starter and a battery to turn it over about 10-12 revolutions

1 - 90
2 - 88
3 - 88
4 - 60
5 - 110
6 - 90

so there you have it. 4 is on the way out as you can see, stretched timing chain...lots of effort... time to start drinking..

OK, good on you for getting that done!

I gotta ask, did you drop a few drops of oil in the cylinders before the test? I ask b/c under normal conditions the engine would have a some what fresh coating of oil in the cylinders, your hasn't been run in a very long time therefore it is dry...

If you're up for it, try it again with a few drops of oil, turn over dozen times to get the oil spread out in the cylinders then try the test again. You might be surprised at the results! Or maybe not, but I think its worth a try considering how long this engine has been sitting....

Do you know what the spec compression should be? 135?

[911lvr]

Originally Posted by 911Freak

OK, good on you for getting that done!

I gotta ask, did you drop a few drops of oil in the cylinders before the test? I ask b/c under normal conditions the engine would have a some what fresh coating of oil in the cylinders, your hasn't been run in a very long time therefore it is dry...

If you're up for it, try it again with a few drops of oil, turn over dozen times to get the oil spread out in the cylinders then try the test again. You might be surprised at the results! Or maybe not, but I think its worth a try considering how long this engine has been sitting....

Do you know what the spec compression should be? 135?

At this point im up for anything..so Ill give it another go with the drops of oil in it.

ill post up the results when I have them.

thanks