Need help getting back on track with my project

polizei · 12-30-2011, 12:48 PM

My project began in 2007 when my 1987 3.2 Carrera began filling every intersection with a cloud of black smoke. The valve guides were shot, and I needed a top end rebuild. I was new to Porsches and engines, really, and had ambitions to get as much horsepower for as little money as possible "while I was in there". A turbo seemed to fit the bill.

I found a local mechanic friend who agreed to rebuild the top end, though he had never worked on Porsches previously. We got through the project, and I had the turbo on the car for a very short time before removing it to troubleshoot a massive oil consumption issue. The top end was then rebuilt (again), but the turbo remained off because I did not have the resources to complete the job properly.

Earlier in the year, I decided to upgrade the suspension and brakes before increasing the HP any further. I've worked with Mark Burkett from Specialty Cars in Allentown, PA throughout this year, and I couldn't be happier with the quality of his work. So much so, that I asked Mark to help me pick back up the turbo project where I left it a few years ago. Since Mark was not familiar with the fellow that rebuilt the engine, he recommended a compression and leak down test before beginning any changes.

Mark called me to deliver the bad news earlier today. He relayed that the numbers were quite poor for an engine with less than 5K miles. I'm not all that familiar with the technical standards, but he explained that where a properly rebuilt engine should make at least 150 psi in each cylinder, mine makes on average 80 psi. He's going to check the cam timing first to make sure it's not a contributing factor, but he's fairly certain that the engine will need to be rebuilt - either due to out of spec pistons/cylinders or improperly seated rings.

Suffice it to say that I do not have the money to rebuild my engine and complete the turbo upgrades I had in mind, this year. Moreover, I'm at the point where I'm thinking my budget and blood pressure would better handle a naturally aspirated engine.

4 years ago I thought I wanted 400 HP, but I've since realized that 300 HP is plenty for me. I had the opportunity to participate in a taste of the track event at Summit Point a few months ago, courtesy of the Southeast Pennsylvania PCA. One of the instructors let me ride along in his 300-ish HP 996, and I was blown away! 300 HP is fast to me! And I have to imagine that 300 HP in a 3.2 Carrera will go even farther. Although, I'm not concerned about the numbers. My goal is to have a car that feels fast to me, can be driven reliably on the street and will be fun to drive at the occasional DE event. I'd like to ask for your guidance on how to get there.

Let me tell you what I've got, and then I'd like to hear your thoughts on how to achieve my goals.

Installed:
3.2 Carrera with stock Motronic EFI
3.2 Carrera Cylinder Heads rebuilt by Henry at Supertec - Twin Plugged
Andial Twin Plug Splitter and 964/993 Twin Plug Distributor
Stock 3.2 Carrera crank and rods - ARP Rod Bolts
97mm Mahle Cylinders (half finned) and Pistons (8.0:1 compression)
Supertec Head Studs
Stock 3.2 Carrera Cams
Stock 3.2 Carrera Intake and Throttle Body
Late-Style Carrera Oil Cooler

Not Installed:
Electromotive Tec-3R engine management system w/ twin plug ignition (replaces Motronic, Andial Splitter, distributor and the cumbersome Mass Air Flow Meter)

Obviously the pistons (and probably the cylinders) will need to be replaced to get into the 300 HP neighborhood. What else should I be considering? Will the Electromotive Tec-3R system help me get there or is it just as well to have Steve Wong create a custom chip for the Motronic system? I've invested a pretty penny into the Electromotive system, but I also realize that I'll need to spend a bucket more to install and tune it.

Interested to hear your thoughts. Thank you for your time.

RSBob · RSBob's Garage

Sympathy bump. Hope you get your answer.

DanielDudley · 12-30-2011, 04:36 PM

You should be putting a 3.6 into that puppy.

porschenut · 12-30-2011, 04:56 PM

Unfortunately you're not going to get anymore horsepower out of your engine without doing another rebuild, which you say you don't have the resources for, so I'm not sure what you're expecting. If you want to make the car faster, chasing horsepower is the most inefficient use of funds imaginable. By far, the most cost effective way to make the car faster is to lighten it. The second most cost effective way is to rebuild the transmission with shorter and/or closer gears. The feel of the car can be like adding 100 hp if you do it right. And although it is expensive, it will be lot cheaper than rebuilding your engine again (which you'll have to do at any rate, it appears).

When you increase horsepower, you're only making it accelerate faster. When you lighten the car, it not only accelerates faster but stops and turns faster too. And it doesn't cost a dime.

ivangene · 05:13 PM

....

I suggest learning what 200 HP can do, I didnt read that entire post but I see you want to add HP ...

sign up for every DE this year...chances are your car is already faster than you know what to do with it and having more HP wont make things better...its cheap and money WELL SPENT!

not trying to be mean but I had a 996 with plenty of GT3 bits and I can out drive it in my plain Jane stock 3.2 after only a couple grand in DE fees .....

rebuild it to stock (ish) specs

polizei · 12-30-2011, 05:35 PM

Guys - thank u for all ur input. Please let me clarify a few things:

1. I was originally planning to build a 400+ HP turbocharged car. It was my assumption that the previous rebuild (performed 5k miles ago) was suitable for me to add all the turbo bits onto. I had budgeted roughly $10k to finish the project this winter.

2. Today I learned that the engine was not rebuilt properly and that another rebuild is necessary. Its possible that the used pistons and cylinders that were installed during the previous rebuild need to be replaced. If so, my $10k budget will be eaten up quickly and i certainly won't be able to afford adding the turbo bits on top of that.

3. Im now thinking about forgetting the forced induction dream and aiming for a higher output normally aspirated engine. In this thread, I'd like to explore how and if i can get to a 300 HP normally aspirated engine, by building on what I already have.

4. Please note that on top of having less than half the compression I should, I'm running 8.0:1 compression ratio as I was intending to go turbo. A stock 3.2 is quick and loads of fun. Mine is objectively a dog

Engine swaps are not out of the question, but I'd like to understand how far off I am with what I've got.

porschenut · 07:00 AM

A very high performance motor that many people have built to 300+ hp, starting with a 3.2 case:

3.4HC (10.3 +/-) Mahle P/C's
S, RSR or other aggressive cams
Twin plug ported heads
PMO individual throttle bodies
Tec-3/Motec for fuel and spark management
Dual exhaust headers into a 1- or 2-out muffler

You have the twin plug heads and Tec-3 already, but still that 300+ hp is not going to come cheap. You could save some dough on the above spec by substituting PMO carbs and DFI ignition units for the ITB setup and sell the Tec-3R, but obviously it would be a lot less tunable and you'd sacrifice a little drivability. The 3.4 upgrade is a simple bolt-on without requiring any modification to the case or heads.

GaryR · GaryR's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivangene

....
I suggest learning what 200 HP can do, I didnt read that entire post but I see you want to add HP ...
sign up for every DE this year...chances are your car is already faster than you know what to do with it and having more HP wont make things better...its cheap and money WELL SPENT!
not trying to be mean but I had a 996 with plenty of GT3 bits and I can out drive it in my plain Jane stock 3.2 after only a couple grand in DE fees .....
rebuild it to stock (ish) specs

Bet I can make his eyes water with my 180 HP SC.....

Get the thing running properly and get the suspension upgraded, lighten the car as much as practical for your everyday use and learn to drive it.

porschenut · 12-31-2011, 07:14 AM

Or, you could just drop in a 3.3 turbo engine and deck lid w/intercooler. The cost may not be much different than building the hot rod N/A engine. But the N/A engine will have neck-snapping throttle response, no turbo lag (huge factor, in my opinion), and will be brand new.

ivangene · 12-31-2011, 07:19 AM

right Gary!

spend your $10k to fix what's broken...the stock motor and the nut behind the wheel

besides, i dont think you can do a 300HP motor for $10k....

how about this...sell the 87' and buy a 996 - hell you could come out of that one nice..there are plenty of sub $20k 996's

blucille · 12-31-2011, 07:36 AM

I'll just add you are in good hands with Mark, whatever decision you make.

polizei · 12-31-2011, 07:43 AM

Let me ask my question another way. With the parts i have and another 10k, what kind of power could I reliably hit?

uwanna · 08:23 AM

OOPS, sorry for the double post!

uwanna · 12-31-2011, 08:22 AM

Personally, I would dump in a good 3.6 motor and end all the heartache! I did it almost 20yrs ago to my '80SC, and after fooling with trying to improve the performance of the previous eight 911s I've owned, I've never looked back! You have the luxury of a wonderful stock motor (reengineered, with many of the earlier trouble spots solved. i.e. chain tensioners, dual plug etc) running just like it was designed to do with 250hp and tons of torque for starters. Then with a few tweaks like headers etc, you're getting close to 300hp with an untempermental motor and great gas mileage that you can drive daily like a Miata!

wayner · 12-31-2011, 09:23 AM

Here is some perspective on chasing HP numbers

Thats me in a stock powered 72 911t (with RSR valved struts and 'S' sway bars and one size larger rear torsion bar on 6" yokahama AVS ES100 street tires.

In the picture I just put lapped traffic between myself and the two silver cars I had been chasing for three laps. By the end of the session I had lapped the two silver cars as well. If you compare HP numbers, I'll bet the 72t is close to half what the silver cars had.

It was my first DE event so in a green run group. I had on-track experience on bikes, but not cars. Others people here will be faster than me, that's not my point

My point is, that as damned fast as those silver cars were, you have to look at more than just Hp.

wayner · 12-31-2011, 09:29 AM

Also,as a second point of reference,
in the car I just bought this year (not the one in the picture above), was a built 3.0.

The engine had been boat tailed, webbered, ported etc.
It is certainly less than 300 hp.

CCM911 · 12-31-2011, 10:15 AM

You really need to sit down with Ed and Myles from the club(Riesentoter PCA) and ask them what they think. Both have a ton of experience with 3.2 emgines.

Personally, I think that 300HP from a naturally aspirated 3.2 is pushing it.

Rebuild to stock and learn to drive.

Sorry to be so blunt, but you put the question out there.

ivangene · 12-31-2011, 02:48 PM

here is a proud moment passing an 04' Turbo on the straight....dont get me wrong I was pointed by...after 3 laps of tailgating him through every turn but the straight ones!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe8M02FvJgA&feature=BFa&list=UUbsj5dlieq0GI6kUyz0Q_bg&lf=plcp

ShakinJoe · 12-31-2011, 04:28 PM

I am with Gary on this. I had the same dream of a faster car but I also checked my ego at the door and asked a ton of questions as there is a ton of experience available.

Buy a good used 3.2L for about $5000 and hang on to your engine till you have the funds to 3.4 it.

Take some weight out of that 3000 lb pig.

LEARN to drive it.

I drive my 200 angry horsepower alongside some pretty nice equipment and do not embarrass myself. It feels good to have a good driver in a Cayman S tell you he tried like hell to catch you for 6-7 laps only to run out of session time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryR

Bet I can make his eyes water with my 180 HP SC.....

Get the thing running properly and get the suspension upgraded, lighten the car as much as practical for your everyday use and learn to drive it.