To Pertronix or not ?

[Todd Simpson]

Jamie-Can you share what you did to the Crane Trigger to address the issue with variable timing?

Loren-Can you share your thoughts on the Crane trigger and their ignition systems in general?

FWIW I've had good success with Crane and I am about to install another one of their trigger and CD units.

thanks,

[Lorenfb]

"Can you share your thoughts on the Crane trigger and their ignition systems in general?"

An optical trigger is even more temp sensitive than the Hall Effect. Don't know anything
about Crane ignition, i.e. need some data posted.

[69911e]

A few points of clarification:

1: I spoke with a engineer at Pertronix a few years ago and he stated they never have actually tested the individual cylinder variance. They have no equipment to do so.
2: When I stated the points last for many years, I was referring to the point replacement. I do lightly clean the contacts (30 second job) and set timing (1 min) every year. Good idea to annually open the distributor and lube it anyways (often ignored item).
3: To fully evaluate ignition systems, remember it should be tested at the entire operating range. Those who have raced cars here will recognize the importance of the car having full power at the beginning and end of the race (HOT), (I personally want my street performance optimized also). The Pertronix also changes properties with temp.
4: The Crane system is one I have considered testing/installing, as it is a good design. A good crank triggered ignitions are obviously superior to all, if it has proper tuning capability.
5: Although many manufactures have used (including Bosch) Hall effect in the distributor, none I have seen have used multiple magnets implemented like the pertronix. They instead used a more robust design which will maintain correct cylinder-cylinder timing while accounting for real world material variances.
6: Pertronix is suitable for it's original intended market, Commercial and industrial.

[prebordao]

BTW, what would be the best lubricant for points ?

[69911e]

Bosch makes a good point lube in a tube or just use what comes in a set of points (you will use 1/50 of the small blister pack per application).
Do a search on distributor lubrication to understand the proper lube and place to lube the other parts of the distributor.

[lupin..the..3rd]

Originally Posted by prebordao

I'm thinking of replacing the points in the distributor with an Ignitor kit from Pertronix.

Apart from not having to deal with points again, what benefits (even small) can I expect ? Better cold starts ? Slightly better mileage ?

Pertronix will give you two things:

1. It will free you from the enormous burden of spending 10 minutes every 6,000 miles to adjust points.

2. It will leave you stranded when it fails suddenly and without warning because it's a cheap taiwanese toy.

Pertronix is purely a convenience thing, for those unwilling or unable to spend 10 minutes to adjust points. There is no gain whatsoever in performance, cold starts, or fuel economy. Zero. In fact, your performance and mpg might even decline, as I've seen pertronix shaft wheels where the magnets are not even equally spaced!! Talk about poor quality control.

[jpnovak]

Originally Posted by Todd Simpson

Jamie-Can you share what you did to the Crane Trigger to address the issue with variable timing?

The Crane optical trigger is simple. It is an LED and a photodiode housed in a plastic part. The LED will illuminate the photodiode. A small trigger wheel interrupts the light path and provides the 12V "effective" square wave that will simulate the points opening.






I have had one in my targa for more than 10 years. No issues.

I even converted my SC distributor to one to trigger a Crane Ignition when I converted to twin plug and when the Bosch CDI crapped out on me.

If one needs to adjust timing on the trigger wheel it takes a flat file inside the "window". first measure the timing offset at each individual cylinder. Then adjust all to the most "advanced". Now reset the timing correctly for the optimized trigger signal.

The reality is that I only had to clean up two slots due to leftover sprue flashing from the injection molding process.

[daniel911T]

I have a pertronix. First one I purchased was DOA. Replacement (sent rapidly) has worked without any trouble. Customer service was very helpful and responsive. They even overnighted the replacement to me at no charge!

I have not tested timing on each cylinder. Might be worth trying someday, but at the moment I like the simplicity.

My pertronix is driving an MSD 6AL with a blaster 2 coil. No issues with entire setup.

Good luck!

-Dan

[dicklague]

Wow! I have learned so much from this Pertronix post.

What a fool I have been to love my Pertronix Ignitor II!!!

I will either remove my Pertronix, or go "in closet" that I have one if I leave it in.

I have learned that Pertonix:

Is off by as much as 6 degrees cylinder to cylinder
Is made in Taiwan.
Has no QC.
Don't mark polarity [mine has a read and a black wire but....does that mean something?]
Go up in smoke if you leave it on without running.
Have magnets randomly placed in the rotor.
Have varying magnet strengths.
914 guys hate them.

I have also learned that:
Points last forever if properly lubed.
Total time to adjust dwell and points is 10 minutes.
Adjusting points takes a few seconds.
Adjusting points every 5000 miles is not big deal, and a ritual I should love.
New technology has no place in an old Porsche.

Now I am going to have to buy a new timing light with a degree dial and test each plug wire to see the advance variations for myself. I will test Pertronix and then points to see if there is a variation cylinder to cylinder in each.

I may have to go to a shutter window Crane setup, of maybe a crank fire system.........

Not sure I can sleep at night knowing that I was fooled by my reliable, good running Pertronix. I will have to test out all the claims and find the truth before I can get another good night's sleep.

[skunked]

Originally Posted by 69911e

1: I spoke with a engineer at Pertronix a few years ago and he stated they never have actually tested the individual cylinder variance. They have no equipment to do so.

wow.

I may need to remove that from my vintage volvo motor.

[Howard M]

Here my opinion: My Pertronix has, to all appearences, performed flawlessly for about ten years on two cars. No timing fluctuations or changes over time. Of course, I don't know about cylinder to cylinder variation, but the Porsche revs to redline and beyond without hesitation. I have received nothing more and nothing less than Pertronix promised.

[prebordao]

For the reasonable price, I think I'll try it... a learning experience.

BTW, is this the way it's supposed to be tied into a CDI car ?

[dicklague]

Originally Posted by Joe Bob

Hey Dick....and I mean that in a friendly way.....the OP asked for opinions, we gave them. Take a Xanax and have a good nights sleep.

But where were these opinions when others posted about Pertronix? There have been many posts over the years, and suddenly all this "truth" comes out.

Where has all this information been hiding?

All those happy and satisfied Pertronix customers have been tricked for all this time.

XANAX is not strong enough......my world is coming apart!!

[dicklague]

Originally Posted by prebordao

For the reasonable price, I think I'll try it... a learning experience.

BTW, is this the way it's supposed to be tied into a CDI car ?

That is the right diagram. Basically you are adding switched 12 VDC [red wire in the diagram] to power the module.

The black wire is the "points" wire like the stock system.

[prebordao]

Originally Posted by dicklague

That is the right diagram. Basically you are adding switched 12 VDC [red wire in the diagram] to power the module.

The black wire is the "points" wire like the stock system.

So, I need to add a new wire from the ignitor to the cd box ?

[dicklague]

YES, you do have to add a wire to the Pertronix as in the diagram.

The black wire is the "points" wire and goes to the same place on the CD box as the normal points wire.

The only new wire is switched 12 volts DC to power the Pertronix unit. You can get it this power from the 12VDC that powers the CD box or anywhere else that energizes when you switch the key on.

This diagram shows getting the 12vdc [red] from the CD power connector. That is a good place to get it.

[chad1068]

The first failed pertronix (the black one in the photo) was an ignitor I. It ran for 15 minutes. I may have left the key on for 10 minutes while wiring the AC unit. My bad, I wouldn't think that would ever happen in the real world. After talking to Pertronix I upgraded to an Ignitor II with thermal protection in case the key is left on. The second failed pertronix was DOA. The third was also an ignitor II and came with the recommended flame thrower coil. With the exact resistance as the coil I used on the first two failed units by the way. The objective for purchasing the recommended coil was to use all pertronix stuff on the third unit and to confirm what I already suspected. Well, in Pertronix's defense, they did send me a unit that ran for about two days. I turned the motor off to replace the water pump and when I went to start it again, the ignition was dead. A quick test revealed a third failed unit.

The distributor was set up perfectly from the beginning and well within Pertronix tolerances of min .10 max .60. The voltage at the coil was battery voltage, all wires are new with excellent grounds. I've heard some people question proper installation, well... I call BS. The fact is, at least as far as I'm concerned, Pertronix point eliminators are junk. I understand many have had good luck with them but to ignore the failures and expect that they are reliable is a stretch. The time I have wasted with this product would have replaced points 100 times. The car has not even seen the road yet. Pertronix will not get the chance to leave me stranded. The resistor wire went back on and the new 10.00 points and condenser are running like they should.

The picture shows 3 bad Pertronix Ignitors.

[supdaf]

I was going to start another post but this one seem quite appropriate for me to throw my experience log onto.

The back story. I had the engine/transmission out for some trans work. Syncros, dog teeth, blocks blah, blah, blah. I am quite happy with my transmission now, my bank account, not so much. Thought I would use the engine out time to do some tidying? up. I did things like clean, alternator brushes (interesting in its own right but thats for another show) and I thought that I would install a breakerless pick-up in the distributor. Easy to do on the stand and an upgrade I thought.

My personal verdict: Money well wasted! (ignitor II for those interested)

Issue 1: My idle would hang up at about 2000 before slowly descending to normal. I set it at about 1050. I know 900 is spec but my engine seems to respond better off idle when idle speed is set a little higher than spec. And this is all tach indicated rpm. Actual rpm ??? Tach is probably pretty close. To me this acted like a vacuum leak. I searched quite extensivly, no leak found. I did find that my throttle linkage was a tad long not letting the throttle plate close completely which could explain idle issues. Adjusted that, no help.

Issue 2: I had a small miss at 5500. I say small because it at times seemed like a tach itself issue not an actual miss. At times it was noticable but the engine would then pick up and pull to the rev limiter no problem. This one had me some what perplexed. I first noticed in second gear but upon later examination I found it happened at exactly the same rpm in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. To add to this, yesterday after about a 45 min. ride and a 30min. heat soak (ambient about 75) I got considerable missing up to 4000 rpm then it went away. A later 5min. stop had no issues on restart. When I got home I gave the car another 30 rest and the missing returned.

Decision made at that (poor pun coming) point. I replaced the Ignitor II with stock points and all the aforementioned issues are gone. My conclusion, points it is. Yes I know the maintenance issues. I will deal with them.

Possibles?: A bad unit. Not a real good way to check one out. No I do not want another one. Poor installation. Perhaps but I think my automotive experience coupled with my aviation avionics experience make that hard for me to believe. I did all the work on the engine stand, if the install was poorly done why the 5500 miss in three gears. I would have tried it in 4th but I did not have a safe place to do the lab work. I could be a hack, so enjoy your next flight. I am not perfect but I think I am good enough. I do not think that I screwed this one up.

One observation I had was about the timing differences between the two schemes. With points my distributor is moved to almost one end of the "slot". Still times out properly so very little concern on my part. With the pertronix unit the distributor has to be moved to the other end of the slot to time out properly. What this all means? I do not know. I do not care.

So thats my story and only my story.

[prebordao]

Probably a bad unit... At first i was thinking maybe it was heat related but doesn't seem so.
I have a powerspark unit for 6 months, so far, so good.

[supdaf]

a bad unit is my opinion. do I trust another? NO!

the odd issues (idle and 5500 miss) lead me to live with the maintenance issues of points until I cannot get them any more. Or they become so expensive i'm driven to buy another type of pickup. I am really kind of dissapointed. I spent a great deal of time trying to fabricate a superb install just to rip it out after 200 miles.

I could have bought beer with that money. Oh the humanity!!!