trying to plot a timline for my car...

[82SC]

would you guys put money into suspension upgrades before a engine rebuild and bump in displacement???

my plan is new pre-73 chassis ST flares, ext and int (swap in my SC drivetrain)

then brakes (930's ready to go)

then engine (3.4L hotrod)

then tranny (better gear spacing, general rebuild)

then suspension (upgrade torsion...or go coilovers)

then roll cage, etc...more a track car...

or do you think suspension should be high on the list???

MJ

[makaio]

Yes, I think brakes and suspension are the more important things first.

If the motor blows while your driving, you roll to a stop. If your brakes or suspension fail... $hit happens.

[Superman]

I agree. Given that same choice, a professional driver will choose the suspension and brake upgrades over the engine thing. Though I have FAR less skill than a good track driver does, I also would prefer suspension upgrades. Indeed, I dream of torsion bars.

[Chuck Moreland]

Things end up being in constant refinement so there is always overlap. But I think the best general progression for upgrades is -

Driver skills
Safety equipment
Suspension
Brakes
Engine
Transmission

Most guys who have never been on a track focus on HP, I did too. Spend a half day on the track and you suddenly discover that the last thing you need is more HP. It's a big eye opener.

[82SC]

good advice...and every cell in my body agrees with you...but that damn testosterone hot headedness gets in the way...

oggg...don't forget elephant racing oil lines...

I will probably save tranny for last...engine second to last...suspension...brakes...body

I will just move my SC driveline over to my 73 smog free shell...that should give me a good place to start learning race skills....

MJ

[Jack Olsen]

This is good advice. Horsepower is only useful in the straights. On most sections of a track, at least, you're not anywhere near full throttle -- you're turning, and trying to keep the car under control. Suspension and tires make a huge difference in this area. Horsepower doesn't.

In my opinion, it's not how fast you can go -- anyone with enough money can go fast. It's how fast you can get through the curves.

[jluetjen]

MJ;
I'm agree with the earlier posts. The only thing that I might add is to map out your timeline/budget by sub-system and then work backwards checking for dependancies to ensure that you don't have to backtrack too many times. It's not a silver bullet, but it might open your eyes to some issues that you will need to figure out. For example:

1) Strip and repaint chassis.
2) Upgrade chassis with bolt-in roll cage
3) Upgrade suspension to coil-overs.

Opps! now you need to add additional bracing to support the shock-mounts which are taking all of the spring forces (rather then the Torsion bar and torque tube mounting points)! The result is that you have to strip the car again, weld in the bracing, repaint, etc. etc. etc. Now the bolt-in cage really isn't picking up the chassis in the best way to support the expected loads. etc.

How much is the cost of this rework in 1 or two years compared to the present value of doing it now. Would it be better to go directly to a weld-in-cage to start? If you're the financial type, you'll start calculating the NPV of both options.

Unfortunately, I'm not necessarily answering your question, but introducing a new set of problems. But it's better to figure these out now rather then later.

[Chuck Moreland]

MJ,

The testosterone thing gets in my way too and can be hard to overcome.

But I promise that if you take your car to the track a few times as-is you will see overwhelming evidence that you don't need more HP.

You find that 4 banger 914s and 924s are kicking your ass. You find the straights are where you catch your breath and check guages, the turns and braking points are where the excitment is. You will find that your skills are the weak link in the chain. You will see guys in bone-stock SCs flying around the track. You see turbos pass on the straights, then give it all back on the turns.

Presented with enough data points even the most heavily testosterone-dosed brain begins to see the light. Competitive nature makes you want to be faster and you come to realize that HP is not the way to get faster.

Oil cooling actually belongs up at the top of the list for 911s going to the track. Most 911s with stock cooling run too hot on the track in summer heat. Having adequate oil cooling is kinda like having good tire tread; its a pre-requisite for starting.

[David Bahr]

Priority 1: Survivability of car and driver. This means appropriate safety equipment. Plus, upgrade the ability to shed heat from engine, oil, and brakes, plus maintain oil pressure. Do that oil cooler up front right away or you'll always be fighting it.

Priority 1A: do the strengthening needed. A chassis will weaken over time, so do what you can upfront to prolong its' life. Front camber bar, any seam welding, roll cage.

I think brakes are more important than suspension, having cooked them once at Topeka [it was 118 degrees!] But brakes and suspension are relatively inexpensive, and you're tearing into the same places to do each. I would suggest do all your brakes and suspension mods at once, just to save PITA factor. Brakes and suspension are so cheap relative to horsepower, just bite the bullet and do them all at once.

You never finish your horsepower upgrades. As long as you own the car you will be either chasing more power or repairing your last attempt to get more power. Leave that for the tail end. Don't mess with the tranny until you've done most of your horsepower upgrades, or you might find yourself running out of fifth gear.

Good luck and have fun!

[pbs911]

My first DE taught me alot about how I should proceed. Originally I thought HO and torque w/ a 3.6 conversion was first on my list. Not any more. Even my stock 3.0 with pre-74 exhaust has lots of power. The trick is to get the car to drive great while protecting the driver. Then get the car to go faster w/ reliability.

Here is my list:
1. Get the car in great shape in an original condition: brakes, suspension bushings, engine tuned. This allows me to experince the factory power available.
2. Safety. Since my first DE I have purchased a roll bar and Scroth 6 point harnesses. It's just so damn fast as it is.
3. Suspension. Get the car to drive a way you like and stick to the ground.
4. Upgrade brakes. Less fade and prepare for more power.
5. Transaxle. I will build one that will be able to handle the power of a bigger motor for future installation.
6. Motor. Now that the car is set up to handle, I will be able to move onto more power. Buy this time I hopefully will have some track experience to appreciate and handle the extra power. I will also be albe to install the new motor with a built-proof tranny that i have previsouly prepared. No reason to install a motor with a tranny that WILL fail.

For me, this will provide me with a great running car that is safe and will hopefully improve in performance at the same level as the learning curve.

[katigbr]

82SC,
No difference here. My timeline was based on my progressing skill set. Here's what I would have done. I ended up doing things a couple of times because I wasn't firm in what my objectives were; hot rod 2.7/2.8 or 3.6, Street and Track percentage usage.

Here's how I would have done it:
1) Seats, Harnesses, Steering wheel
2) Suspension - Turbo Tie rods, Torsion Bars, Sway Bars, Bushings, Monoball inserts. You should decide how far you want to go and save money on upgrading parts/labor.
3) Brake Upgrade and/or Cooling
4) Roll cage
5) Transmission - changing to the right gearing feels like and extra 50hp.
6) Engine and engine cooling
7) Lightweight body panels - F/G or C/F doors, hood, fender, lexan windows etc.
Optional stages...
8) Even bigger engine
9) Cool Coolar and Intake Turbine thingy

Regards,
Rick

[Joeaksa]

82SC,

No matter how much HP your motor puts out, its all worthless until the suspension can safely put each and every last bit of power to the ground.

Doing the suspension and such first will then allow you to use all the power in your existing motor, and if you plan it correctly will allow you to upgrade your motor and still safely drive to the limits of yourself and the car. It will also result in a much safer car during the entire time of your modifications.

Too many people jump on the "lets get more power" bandwagon before upgrading the suspension and such and its backwards in my feeble mind!

Joe

[VWpete]

Speaking of safety on the top of the list.
What type of harness should I use for auto-x twice a year. I was holding myself in w/ my steering wheel at my first. I've got a harness bar, but what type for a street 911 to be used 2 times a year for auto-x? 4-point? I want to do no drilling and use my factory belts w/ factory seats. Where can I find low prices and quality!

[widebody911]

Brey-Krause makes a doohickey that lets you use both the stock belts and a harness in the same car.

Another trick is to twist the belt at the latch end a couple of times just before you put it in the reciever.

[jluetjen]

82SC;
I just noticed that Classic Motorbooks is running a sale and the seem to be dumping some of the older titles. One of my favorites -- "Showroom Stock Race Car Preparation" is available for less then $10! I'd recommend picking it up. Admittedly it is somewhat skewed towareds the UK scene, so the examples are cars not seen over here like a Sierra Cosworth. I found that it wasn't really an issue since it does contain so much excellent information about preparing a car for "Showroom Stock" racing. I put showroom stock in "'s because the preparation tips that they describe are more appropriate for the Speed GT and Touring series as well as Motorola Cup. It covers a lot of the stuff that people are describing on this thread in more detail.

I'd recommend buying it if there are any left.

PS: "Another trick is to twist the belt at the latch end a couple of times just before you put it in the reciever."

>>> I disagree strongly<<<. If there is one thing to be learned from the whole Dale Ernhart tragedy - it is that seatbelts should >>> ONLY <<< be installed according to the manufactures specifications. This means no kinks, knots or loops. They should also be mounted to the appropriate points using the recommended looping system with NO SLACK IN THE MOUNTS. Anything less is inviting a personal tragedy the one time when you will need your belts to work.

[widebody911]

Ok, I'm talking about stock belts for one.

This is an old trick, to make the belt tighter against your body. On the end of the belt that goes into the latch, you suck in your gut and twist it a couple of times before you put it in the latch. This prevents the inertia reel from *releasing* more slack. Stock seat belts are not designed for the type of tossing around that you get on an auto-x course or on a track. By taking out the slack, and keeping it out in this manner, you're held in much better than with the inertia reels letting slack out at every opportunity.

I don't see any relationship between this and the Dale Earnhardt thing.

Originally posted by jluetjen

PS: "Another trick is to twist the belt at the latch end a couple of times just before you put it in the reciever."

>>> I disagree strongly<<<. If there is one thing to be learned from the whole Dale Ernhart tragedy - it is that seatbelts should >>> ONLY <<< be installed according to the manufactures specifications. This means no kinks, knots or loops. They should also be mounted to the appropriate points using the recommended looping system with NO SLACK IN THE MOUNTS. Anything less is inviting a personal tragedy the one time when you will need your belts to work.

[ChrisBennet]

I'm not sure what your goals are; fun project/racing/DE (most likely all 3) but if racing is one of them you must study the rulebook for the class you intend to race in before you start making any changes.

Another trick to keep the seatbelt tight for autocross is to recline the seat back, yank on the seatbelt to lock it, and then raise the seat back again. This takes out the slack and keeps the belt locked. It's very easy with power seats but you can do it with manual ones as well.
-Chris

[widebody911]

Ok, I've started working on getting the oil cooler installed on my front end, and the bumper around it. It looks like the RSR bumper is just too tight of a fit for the lines to route properly. The oil cooler slot itself is great, but the way the bumper curves back from there makes interferes with the lines trying to go into the side of the cooler. To make this work, I'll have to modify the bumper, cutting out and re-glassing a section.

Any suggestions? At this stage of the game, I'd much rather buy a different bumper and take a small loss on the old one, rather than try to fight my way thru making this fit.

For now, I'm going to go ahead and build the box for the oil cooler, and just not install it yet.

[jluetjen]

Widebody911; I don't want to be preachy but I'm a big believer in safety (more so since having watched "The Quick and the Dead" last night!).

"On the end of the belt that goes into the latch, you suck in your gut and twist it a couple of times before you put it in the latch."

Whenever you knot a rope, you are creating a weak point since all of the forces are concentrated at the knot. Trust me I know, I've broken enough water ski ropes because of knots. The same applies to seatbelts. Any seatbelt is designed to be sacrificial. In slow speed accidents they hold you snug. At any speed greater then about 30 MPH, seatbelts will stretch which provides a gentler stop for the body. This is why sanctioning bodies require seatbelts to be replaced after accidents. Once a belt has been stretched, it's junk - just like a stretch bolt. They will often stretch 3 or 4 inches - or more! If the belt is twisted in any way, it will cause a stress riser. Rather then stretching, the belt is more likely to rip. If the twist is against your body, it also concentrates the force it applies to your body in a smaller surface area and that will hurt! Picture a wire slicing through cheese - ouch!

If you remember when Paul Tracy had his accident at Indy a number of years ago, it was obvious in the slow motion replay that his helmet hit the steering wheel. But when he climbed into the car earlier, he was strapped in so tight that he couldn't get his helmet anywhere near the wheel. Thankfully it wasn't his neck that did the stretching -- it was his seatbelts. Since the force required to (de)accelerate an object goes up exponentially with speed, changing the distance for the deaccelerating body from 1 inch to 6 inches makes a 36x difference in the survivability of the occupent.

If you ever have a chance to inspect some belts after an accident, check where they run through the metal loops - they will often be glased as a result of the displacement from stretching.

The message - belts should always be worn flat and straight. If you have ever had an accident at speed -- replace your seatbelts. It's cheaper then replacing your life.

I'll get off of my soapbox...