Why windshield trim should be a regular maintenance item.
 

When I was shopping for my car I looked at many cars, some good, some bad. I also followed threads here to see what to look for. Also, stopping in to see some at shops was helpful.

Here are two pictures that I collected that illustrate what can happen. I think if the windshield is pulled early, a bit of cleanup is done and then windshield and rear glass reinstalled once in a while, this wouldn't get as bad as these cars had.

A bit of water seeping in, getting observed by the matting and then sitting for years could cause this. Surely this can be prevented without having to keep you car locked up inside where you can't use it???





http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1341332098.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1341332117.jpg

Update

Here is what a leak looks like at the rear corner where the water pools on the glass.

This was the result of a test after installing a brand new seal. (The seal was new but sat in a box for years before installation). A fresh one solved the problem



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1366663315.jpg

Here are some additional pictures that I have collected from other people's posts

First, the area of window frame and dash that tend to get it the worst

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1371090592.jpg

Where the water goes next.

Note the evidence of past corrosion in the area to the left near the wheel well.Your carpet will be wet in that area.
(of course any water that gets ont eh floor from any source will eventually end up in the peddle box, so that area can become bad form many sources).

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1371090709.jpg

Now moving to the back again, the path the water takes is across the parcel tray as shown in earlier pics, then settling in the rear seat are, before eventually making its way to the floor.

All this damage is going unnoticed, hidden by the damp underside of what might be an otherwise dry carpet, but if it is bad most likely the carpet is damp all the way through. My point is the that underside can remain damp after the surface has dried

Check your seals.

Note: from what I have observed and tested to be true, the dark grey primer in this person's picture (left and right sides) illustrates the path the water takes from the parcel tray to the seats.

I'm glad my car was saved before it got as far as the one in the picture. All that rot was from the leaks in the lower corners of the rear glass

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1371091004.jpg

Another picture that I collected, and a link to the repair thread.


Please check your seals and put an end to the carnage

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/paint-bodywork-discussion-forum/733955-pillar-cowl-rust.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1361063046.jpg

Here is an excellent "how-to" thread by Jack Olsen on replacing the rear window and seal

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/756051-race-prep-backsliding-re-installing-rear-windshield.html

I took this picture of an early car.
Here is where the water collects when the rear quarter windows seals leak.
Water runs off the roof, around the corner and straight into the car.

Collecting pictures of rusted cars is my new hobby ;)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1382563624.jpg

People who shortcut the window seal reinstallation should be flogged with a windsheld seal (rust covered)

I found every channel in my racecar with rust in it from a terrible prep job prior to repainting. Obviously the seals were out when the thing was painted, so why not spend the time to do a bit of prep work before painting it?! Probably because "who cares, it's a racecar" was the perspective. :mad:

Looking forward to hearing from my Painter on his works with prepping for such...key area, indeed!

BEST!

Doyle

I just did a water test on my own car with the 1/4 windows open a crack.
To see what would happen I poured water on the roof. In seconds this is where it ended up!

Note that I had already strategically left an open path in my sound deadening material so that nothing will soak up the water if I get caught in the rain one day.

My plan is to layer the next type of sound deadening material over this one, forming a bridge that will not interfere with this water path or sop up and retain the moisture.

I also just drilled a drain hole. If you look at the pictures above, you can see that water will make its own hole so I made one myself and coated the edges with POR15 so that it won't grow.

Consider it preventative maintenance, and my tests are my car's sacrifice to the greater good of all of your cars ;)
NOTE: If you decide to drill your own drain hole, watch out for the battery cable under the right rear seat!
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1382578866.jpg

Another good reason to lose all of that fiber/rubber sound deadening stuff while adding lightness.

Here is another example of the same rust path hidden under carpeting.

Notice the rot on the vertical surface at the front base of the rear seat (near the floor).

This is from water being held against that surface by carpet matting that wicked it up from the seat pod.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1382617278.jpg

I ran another test.

My assumption has always been that the rear corners hold water and that is where the seepage comes from but, now I see that those 1/4 window seals may be as bad or worse.

Here is the rear window area that is susceptible (apparently it hold milk also...milk photographs better).

With my first seal I had a leak in this area. THe second attempt proved to be water tight (for now)


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1382617532.jpg

But then this!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1382617672.jpg

The most surprising thing about the last picture is that the water didn't enter the car at the bottom of the glass. It entered midway down and trickled to the bottom!

The new seal along the side of the back window appears perfectly tight and snug but obviously not water tight.

It is hard to see in this picture but you can just make out the trickle, and you can see it accumulating towards the bottom corner along the edge where the glass meets the seal on the inside of the car.

The water first appears as a trickle about ten inches up from that lower point.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1382617931.jpg

Another picture of a rusty dash on another car.

After seeing all of these cars in this condition and running my own tests, I am flabbergasted as to why anyone would recommend installing these seals dry without any sealant just because thats the way the factory did it before better materials came along.

I've even see the telltale rust signs on cars as new as 993s. My understanding is that they use a newer type seal but still installed dry.


Also note that the worst damage is at locations where the water migrates to due to the wicking of interior materials, not where the water initially enters.


This one is obviously not a 993;)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1382619328.jpg

This is a conundrum.

On one hand, leave out all the interior materials so that water can not do so much damage and save the car, but on the other hand put something back in so that the noise doesn't do so much damage to the driver.

I wish I had never left mine out.

After only driving mine for a few weeks I developed tinnitus that won't go away, and I drove with ear plugs. I also fear that I have lost some hearing range because eventually the noise didn't bother me as much, but conversations now do when voices fall within that range.

Stupidest thing I ever did was drive without sound deadening.

A couple of points worth noting...

If you see any cloudiness or haze in the corners of the windows, particularly the front windshield, that is a dead giveaway that you've got a water problem. Best to pull the window, address any rust and treat with POR15 to prevent future damage.

Also when you replace your seals, make sure you use the Porsche ones. The non-Porsche seals do not fit right, especially in the corners. When you see the two seals side by side, the difference is pretty clear. The Porsche seals are "fit" for the corners, meaning they have the angles bent properly. The non-Porsche seals are a single piece of extruded rubber that they just fuse the ends together. The result is they bunch and gather in the corners and don't lay flat. To put it another way, think of a pipe that is bent at 90 degrees versus a pipe that is bent with a mandrel bend.

Pelican also has listing for seals identified as OEM.

Do you know if those are the Porsche seals (or does the term original equipment mean something different in that listing)?

Thanks

Best preventative maintenance/ upgrade you can perform on your Porsche, even more important than that new strut tower brace or shift knob: Replace all the rubber seals.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/...911_seals4.jpg
http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/...911_seals2.jpg

good question. I think it says Porsche or something like "genuine Porsche". I may be wrong but I don't think OEM are the correct ones in this case.

That's part of why I plan to glue in my windshield. I don't plan on doing rust repairs on this thing again. :)

Since you've spent a lot of timing looking at rust, can you make list of the top places one should look for rust when inspecting a car for sale?

People will tell you that surface rust is surface rust. Its your money. I personally see it as the tip of the iceberg on these cars rather than a starting point it is often the end of long rotting process going on from the inside out. All of it can be fixed though.

Most of what I have seen I think I can attribute not as much to outside elements attacking the outside but those elements getting inside and going to work (thus the reason for this thread).

1. Paint bubble on rear between glass and decklid = parcel tray

2. Surface rust inside the door where the lock post and rocker panel meet = kidney bowls and inner rockers (or at least rocker ends) plus rear subframe section (ends of torsion tube).

3. Visible rust behind the dash where it meets the A pillar = windshield cowl and corner. Also suspect the entire front door post rotting from the inside out.

4. Paint bubble near the corner of the front cowl ahead of windshield, suspect dash and A pillar/windshield track. (if lower corners of glass are foggy, definitely windshield track although may be minor).

5. Surface rust in battery area in the trunk = front suspension pan (remember what I said about surface rust).

6. inside, lift the carpet at the front of the seat base. check out the vertical area below and beside the seat. If its bad, maybe also need floor pans and rear seat base. If it is really bad suspect rear torsion tube as well.

7. Underside, check floor, torsion tube, rear subframe section (ends of torsion tube) and also suspension pan.

8. back inside, lift carpets and check pedal box area as well as the frontmost area of the floor near the rocker panel and wheel well (where your left foot goes)

These cars rot in different areas than many other cars. Often door seems are good, rear fenders are good but chassis is rotten.

Normal areas to check as with other cars are bottom of door seems, headlight buckets and front fender doglegs.

There can be rust in other places but if you don't find it in these spots first, the other areas are likely ok. 72 and 73 had galvanized lower bodies I am much more wary of a 1969 for instance. The galvanized ones still rot badly, but much more slowly than older cars. I've also seen 993s with the cowl bubble, and 964s with rotted fender top mounting areas. When people say later cars are galvanized so don't worry, don't dismiss rust, it still happens on those cars and can be bad, just takes much longer to get out of control, but SC suspension pans are certainly not immune. i've seen enough of them to know.

Check out my build thread. I've indexed it on one of my later pages and linked to other threads with more info.

How hard is it to lift the carpet?
Do you need to unbolt the seats or door sills?

Most sellers might not want a stranger taking a wrench to their cream puff.

The seller has three options:

1 send you on your way

2 allow you to assume the worst and negotiate accordingly

3 allow an inspection. Having it done at a reputable shop is not unreasonable

P.S.
That's why I bought the car I did. It was already apart

Don't worry, its galvanized?????
 

I have been bothered by advice that keeps popping up on this board relating to rust.

For over ten years people have been advising to just buy a later galvanized car and not worry about rust (Or buy a 3.2 and not worry about transmission problems with a G50).

Maybe ten years ago that advice had some merit, but all of these cars are getting old and I have even seen 993s with the same telltale cowl rust that early cars develop when the windshield seals start to leak.

As evidence, a member just posted a picture of a 1987 model.

When you look at this picture, remember that this car is of the galvanized era...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1393209089.jpg

This car looks like it is rusting form the bottom up. As some state in the OP, likely sat in saltwater. Obviously even a galvanized car will rust from that. Hell, I am pretty sure a stainless steel car would too. Anyone here ever give a DeLorean a saltwater bath? ; )

No, it didn't sit in salt water. It got used in the rain. Lots of it.

That's the point of this thread. There are a bunch of places that water will collect in a 911 body shell if it gets wet. This is made worse when seals fail, rubber gets old, damage is not corrected, etc. Get it wet often enough and it will rust.

Porsche expected its cars to get more servicing than is typically done. I don't mean oil changes but thorough inspections. All the little things that the typical owner ignores completely... They had some long warranties agaist rust perforation but they required that you do an annual (or bi-annual, I don't recall) inspection of the underside of the car and correct any issues.

That still won't solve the rust issues in certain places, as some of that can't be seen without disassembly. They all rust, some sooner than others.

JR

My '87 had the very beginnings of rust in the LH side of the windshield cowl. Mine was a result of a crappy windshield replacement where the new glass was used with the old seal/gasket. Just a tiny bit of rust on the pinch weld and down in the valley of cowl. My local buddy Souk's '89 Fat Bastard had considerable rust in that same cowl area. In hindsight it would seem to me that Porsche should have put a drain hole + tube in those low points of the cowl?

Another local buddy had rust on the RH side as pictured above by wayner. Had to cut out an area and patch in a handmade panel. So, yep even the galvanized cars are not immune to rust. On a car that's used fairly often in all types of weather, it's going to happen at some point.

That area pictured by wayner is one that is commonly packed with a lot of road debris like rocks, sand, bits of asphalt, roadkill remnants. Really surprising how effectively that area can get filled up in between the chassis and the rocker panel area. When that collection of debris gets wet, the water permeates into the pile of crap and it stays wet for a while. A situation like that is a great way for rust to get a foothold.

On a car that hasn't been anally cleaned in a long time, that location will usually require you to get in there with a long screwdriver or rod and jab the crap loose. Once you break it loose, you're surprised how much crap starts to fall out. When washing the car, after you've knocked free the packing of crap by hand, definitely a good place to spray your hose aggressively to keep it free of crap buildup

I just found this picture and had to add it here.

There are plenty of pictures of bad rear parcel shelves, but this is the best picture that I have ever seen of what the underside of the rear sheet metal looks like after the rear seal has leaked. (this one has already had the parcel shelf removed, so by the time the sheet metal rusts though you know that you have problems inside the car).

Here is the complete thread:http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/643329-72-rust-repair-long-overdue-update.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1323063833.jpg

Here is another galvanized car that is starting to age.
This time it is a picture of a 964 with the slightly modern window seals.

Keep an eye on those seals!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1393000687.jpg

Even the newest 964 is 20 yrs old. Lots of cars can look really bad after 20 yrs of regular use, especially if they've seen winter use in the rust belt where I live. Road de-icing materials are NASTY stuff around here. I see 10 yr old cars that are starting to rust way too much, like for instance my 2005 Suburban under the doors and rear lift gate

If you come across a car for sale with that sort of window rust, is that a show stopper?
Just don't open that can of worms? Keep looking?

If you come across a car for sale with that sort of window rust, is that a show stopper?
Just don't open that can of worms? Keep looking?

If it's that bad on the surface, it's going to be MUCH worse underneath. I would be willing to bet that if you pulled that windshield out and did some grinding on the sheetmetal in the windshield frame valley, you'd break thru the metal due to so much rust.

They're not all trailer queens. For someone with a welder and time it's no big deal. Not handy and want a cupcake? Keep shopping. I wouldn't be scared personally if the mechanicals were solid but then again I like winter projects that soak up evening hours. They help keep the mind fresh.

That 964 shot is a good example pic. That fender gasket lifting is another common place they rust. If your gaskets look the same then water is getting in there and it will rust. Galvanizing is great but water sitting in one spot will eat galvanized steel as well.

I have no problem with some people being scared away and other jumping into a project. My concern is heeding the all too common advice "don't worry, later cars are galvanized."

To paraphrase KTL, "yes, but it is still 20 years old.."

My advice, as always, check your seals and stop the carnage

I have one small leak in the bottom right corner of the windshield. I pulled up all the carpet in the cabin and found no rust (THANK GOD!!).

Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't.