Valve gap: what happens to it after engine warms up?

[Hendog]

I'm adjusting my valves as per the backside method. I'm using the 0.0025 as the go and the 0.0030 as the no go. As I adjust, I try to make the adjustment as tight to the 0.0025 as possible. Once it's all done and I get the engine running, what happens to that gap? Metals expand as they heat up, but different metals expand at different rates. I don't know what metals are used in the adjustment screw and other components, nor do I know anything about expansion rates of metals. So does the gap tighten some more or loosen? Should I adjust closer to 0.0030 or closer to 0.0025?

[DRACO A5OG]

That is interesting, Vets?

[snbush67]

The gap tightens. (edit: Sorry, This is wrong, as below others have reported as measuring a wider gap on warm engines, read this whole thread for more information.) Henri, as long as you can slide the 0.0025 in and not the 0.003 you are as close as you ever need to be. It has been my experience that over time the gap will tighten rather than loosen.

Many people have success with different methods, I like to adjust using the normal method, and then confirm using the backside method. When I do this I often find that I can still get the 0.0030 to go in. When I adjust a bit tighter I can no longer get the 0.004 in between the lobe and the foot.

I would recommend that you figure out how to do the normal method measuring between the lobe and the foot with the 0.004 first and once you figure that out then go on to the backside method if it is simpler for you.

You will see that after a few times of doing this you will be able to tug on the them to feel the gap. Then you can tell the difference between loose and tight.

Here is one of the best threads for the backside method: backside valve adjustment - my thoughts

[jeff eelkema]

The valve stem gets longer which is why most engines have a bigger clearance on exhaust valves.

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by snbush67

The gap tightens.

Really?

As we all know the valves and rockers sit in an alloy carrier.
Thinking about it... As the alloy expands the gaps would open up not tighten although I've never measured a hot engine. (alloy expands more than steel)

It would be good to get an accurate measurement of how much the gaps change.

[Geronimo '74]

Originally Posted by snbush67

The gap tightens.

That's what I have always read, learned, known.

[piggdekk]

I think in porsche engines it increases because when the engine is hot usually you can hear more tapping noise. However, that is not a general rule. In fact depending on the head configurations in some engines the play increases and in others it get tighter.
luca

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by Geronimo '74

That's what I have always read, learned, known.

but have you measure it?

[Geronimo '74]

When warm? No, I haven't. (or I would have mentioned that for sure )

[piggdekk]

In one car I had I'm sure the gap would get wider when hot. The car would start with 2-3 cylenders (out of 4 ) when cold and then run normally after a couple of minutes, but will start perfectly when hot. Resetting the gap at cold solved the issue completely. Same happens for example with modern suzuki GSXR engines. The gap does increase when hot.
On other engines it is rather common instead to have troubles starting the engine when it's hot because the valve has no more play and remains open. Ask any motocross rider (especially riding a honda CFR) what a big difference makes to start the engine hot if the valves are not properly gapped.
luca

[psalt]

We have discussed this several times, here is a good thread:

Temperature effect on valve adjustments?

All of us who have actually measured the hot clearance on a 911 engine agree that the gap widens when hot. This is consistent with my experience with many other OHC and DOHC aluminum engines. The valve gap is not about thermal expansion, it is about giving the valve enough seat times to give off heat.

[snbush67]

Hi Paul,

I remember that thread it made my head hurt. Can you summarize your theory here? Was it that because the cam carriers expand at a higher rate that this moves the rockers and cam farther away, which increases the gap?

Shane

[psalt]

Shane,

No theory involved, just get the engine up to temperature and take a few measurements. All the aluminum head engines I have measured hot have wider clearances. The cause ? My guess would be that the surrounding aluminum expands at a much higher rate than the ferrous material. I put this in the "old wives tale" box, along with the idea that noisy valves just need adjustment. My experience is, that valve clearances close down with wear, adjusting them makes them "more noisy" , and the noise usually comes from wear in the guides, rockers, tappets or tappet guides (depending on the engine design) , not variations in the running clearances.

[nesslar]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

Really?

As we all know the valves and rockers sit in an alloy carrier.
Thinking about it... As the alloy expands the gaps would open up not tighten although I've never measured a hot engine. (alloy expands more than steel)

It would be good to get an accurate measurement of how much the gaps change.

This makes sense to me, from experience, and I've talked to a couple local guys who do a lot of work like this. One of those men (when I asked him this very question) said, "Not necessarily...", to the question of things tightening up when hot.
I had a "ticker", he fixed it. Previous to his work, it was fine when "cold" but ticking when warm. Now it is quiet at all temps (normal racket back there is all), and has been for thousands of miles.....odd, perhaps, but true....I think....

[tyro]

It gets wider. I've measured it using the "standard" method using an .004" feeler.

Try it sometime.

[snbush67]

Originally Posted by nesslar

This makes sense to me, from experience, and I've talked to a couple local guys who do a lot of work like this. One of those men (when I asked him this very question) said, "Not necessarily...", to the question of things tightening up when hot.
I had a "ticker", he fixed it. Previous to his work, it was fine when "cold" but ticking when warm. Now it is quiet at all temps (normal racket back there is all), and has been for thousands of miles.....odd, perhaps, but true....I think....

Are you saying that he decreased the cold gap?

When the engine heats to operating temperature, the heads, cam carriers, valve, cam lobes, rockers all expand, but the gap between the valve stem and the adjustment screw base increases?

[nesslar]

Quote: "Are you saying that he decreased the cold gap?"
Yep, but only within reason. "Porsche 911" he said. It was just a bit loose; anything over .004, or even a little "loose"/very little drag at .004 is a big no-no in my mind...I've read before of guys who go tighter than .004 (but very close) cold with no problems, after years of hard use....but hard to say what the truth is....controversy exists it seems?

[snbush67]

This site seems to explain it better: (read the last paragraph about the differences between push-rod and OHC)

Valve Clearance

I think I am starting to understand.

[nesslar]

Great! I hope to also, lol. I'll read that stuff....

[porsche930dude]

Originally Posted by nesslar

Quote: "Are you saying that he decreased the cold gap?"
Yep, but only within reason. "Porsche 911" he said. It was just a bit loose; anything over .004, or even a little "loose"/very little drag at .004 is a big no-no in my mind...I've read before of guys who go tighter than .004 (but very close) cold with no problems, after years of hard use....but hard to say what the truth is....controversy exists it seems?

maby true but that defeats the purpose of the adjustment. Unless your just going for noise reduction.