First Time Posche Buyer- Help Requested

[Tidal Fish]

Hello,

I have been looking for a Porsche for a few months, I must have read a 100 articles, looked at 1000 classified ads and surfed all over the web. From all that I read about buying a used Porsche everyone says buy the newest you can afford. Understand that piece of advice, but also important to me was the style of the car, reliability, maintenance etc. From what I can gather the 1987-1989 911's are well know to basically be "tanks' with their engines and transmissions being very solid. I also love the classic style of the body, so those are the years I am looking for one.

I have looked at a few 1987's and a few 1988's. Most of them have over 100k miles, but have had the engines rebuilt and also transmissions along with things like new brake pads, alternator and starters replaced as well. About every owner has all the receipts, records etc for the work done. What do you think about buying a car in the 1987-1989 range with the engine rebuilt? Once it is done will it "usually" last another 100K? I have talked to some people that say some of the engines will last as much as 250k with no re-build, but that once a rebuild is done you are set for a long time as long as you do regular eminence. What do you think?

What is the typical price range for the 1987-1989 911's. From what I can tell they go no less (even with 100k+ miles) then $19,500 to as much as $28,900 for one with real low (under 50k) miles. Does this sound about right?

Just looking for any advice for a first time Porsche buyer/owner. I know the color I want and have a few cars in mind that I would like to make an offer on. Just found this great forum tonight and wanted to throw the questions out there since there seems to be a lot of people on this board with some great knowledge.

Thanks in advance for any feedback, I really appreciate it!

[marcesq]

TF:

Sounds like you are on the right track. Get a Pre Purchase Inspection of any potential purchase.

If the seller baulks at the idea, run.

The years in question sport the 3.2, which had some minor problems, which included premature valve guide wear (needed replacing at about 40k), and on some rod bolt problems.

If the engine has been rebuild these problems should be resolved.

The other issue is the cylinder head/cylinder joint, which does not have a gasket. Over time they leak on some engines, and the fix is to replace the pistons/cylinders and have the heads machined to accept a gasket. Others may weigh in here that have had actual experiance with this issue.

It didn't scare me away from grabbing a 3.2 for my '77.

Good luck, and welcome to the board.

You will enjoy your car if you are careful in the process.

PS: there are alot of Pelicanites in Md & Va who would be glad to help with your kicking of tires, etc. Just let me know.

[R22tech]

had to do it! I'm flexible with the price and those here that have seen the car can testify to its condition.

Categories: Porsches For Sale
Ad Number: 30837
Date Posted: 05/07/2002
Contact: doug Martin
roswell, ga 30075
usa
Price: 29,900
E-Mail: doug@allbrandservice.net
Web Site:



Description
Featured on www.magbra.com homepage and car show. This car will not disappoint! Blk on Blk with light beige carpet. All original except the sound system. Competetive on the local and regional concours only-would NOT be competetive on a national level without restoration. 47,xxx miles, PPI welcomed and encouraged! Many additional items included in the sale. All records/tools/air pump/brochure/trophy/scoresheet/ect. Must sell to pay for wife's new home! No, it has never seen the track! serious inquiries only!!!(678) 313-3693

[Wayne 962]

Get Randy Leffingwell's newest 911 Buyer's Guide (it's been out about 3 weeks now...)

It's on this page:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/911M/por_911M_documt_main.htm

-Wayne

[89911]

I bought an 89 with 50K 3 years ago and my brother has an 87 with 100K that he bought last year. As you can see, we are partial to these years. He has recently had his top end rebuilt for clubracing and his valve guide were shot, although this was not evident in the engines perfomance. My car now has 60K on it and we checked the valve guide tolerances when doing a valve adjustment last month. There seems to be play in them at this point. The only sympton I have is increased oil consumption, but even that is hard to monitor because of intermittent hard track use and little daily driving. My point is, if you can find one that has had the valve guide replace correctly, you will have a "bomb proof" car. Any car with higher miles on it shoud be checked for premature valve guide wear and perhaps used as a bargaining point for a price. The miles you speak of are typical for these cars. I would feel safer with a car in these years that has recently had the valve guides replaced and disreguard the miles as opposed to a lower mile car that has not had them done.

[Tidal Fish]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for the many responses. I wanted to give the details of a car it looks like I am going to get, barring any problems that come up in a PPI.

Let me know what you think of this:

1988 911 133k miles. Engine rebuilt around 115k (have receipts), when the engine was rebuilt they put in a 993 cam (any problems doing this?) , has a Bosch Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator, turbo tie rod kit, Sport shock absorbers (Bilsteins) ( I am assuming these must have been put on as an aftermarket, not sure how long they last either?), turbo tie rod kit, new brake pads, new alternator, new starter, pretty new tires and wheels, interior is very clean, regular am/fm/cassette radio, sport seats, whale tail, orginal paint job which has been touched up where bumper had some nicks, other then that no rust and paint is good shape, transmission has also been rebuilt with new clutch. Car has been garage kept.

I talked to the macanic who has done the work on the car for the last 4 years, he said its a good car, not concourse quality, but good average car for this year. Said the only thing it will need is a new muffler (which is one of my bargining chips).

I ran the VIN number and the title is clean, the car has had about 6 owners, but no wrecks etc..

What do you think of the car from what I have mentioned?
How much should I expect to pay for something in this shape?

Sorry for all the questions, but I am new at this and would like to get all the expert advice that I can before $ changes hands.

Thanks in advance!

[89911]

Off the top of my head, I would say between the high teens and low 20's. Off course, the condition is most important. The engine rebuild is key. I assume it was for valve guides? I have heard of a 964 cam but not a 993. I am not sure what way the PO was headed. Other then the engine, all other items are normal maintenance and do not add any value. Is this a private sale? On the last car my brother bought, the used car dealer had some previous invoices with the location these were done at. We called then up and then obtained the previous owners name, who was local. He had also been advertising in the local PCA newsletter. I them called him and politely asked about his car. He was more then happy to talk about his car, what was wrong, what had been done, and how much he sold it to the dealer for. Based on his wholesale price, we were able to determine the lowest the dealer would go. Bought the car for $18,000.

[Tidal Fish]

89911,

Thanks for the response. What year was the car your borther bought?

Thanks

[wckrause]

So what is the difference between an '86 and an '87? Isn't it just the G50 tranny?

How much of a premium would you expect to pay for a G50?

Is a G50 more reliable than a 915? I've driven one briefly and wasn't knocked out by it. I have a rather smooth shifting 915, so it didn't seem that the G50 was that big of a step up.

I think you ought to open up your search to at least all Carrera's (84-89) and well maintained low mileage SC's (78-83).

[nostatic]

From the cars I've test driven, the best 915 was about equivalent to an average G50. That's a rather unscientific test of "feel" and smoothness based on 15 or so cars. wck's advice to include earlier carreras is probably well heeded. There were some other minor changes over the years from '84 to '87 (shifter throw reduction, seat height, central locking, etc), but I know I'm not ruling out pre-G50 cars in my search.

Based on SoCal prices, a relatively clean higher mileage '87 with a rebuild can go for anywhere from $20K down to the low teens. Recently I saw a couple of ads for '87-'89 cars with around 150K and rebuilds for $13-$14K. Another one with 110K was going for $17K and sat for months.

Wayne suggested the new 911 buyers guide book, which isn't bad, but has some rather draconian advice for the inspection. It is worth the money, but I'd take some of the text with a grain of salt. I think Peter Morgan's book is the best I've seen for getting background info, and Wayne's book of 101 Projects is also a great resource for the prospective owner.

[89911]

He bought an 87 with105K. As far as not stoping at the G50 in your search, I guess you can. I just don't see too many G50 owners later owning earlier cars with the agricultural trannies

[wckrause]

I just don't see too many G50 owners later owning earlier cars with the agricultural trannies

Maybe because they are more interested in comfort and convenience than in racing heritage.

[Tidal Fish]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the feedback. I just got in from Barnes and Nobel and read though about 5 books with lots of advice. The prices for the car I am looking at seem to be between 16k and 23k depnding on miles etc.

I am pretty set on a 1987-1989 911. Even the books that I read said these were the years a lot of improvements were made and seem to be pretty bullet proof once the valve probelm and a few other things are fixed.

I am having a PPI done on the car I am looking at either tommrow or Tuesday. I will keep this thread posted with my progress.

Thanks again for all the feedback!

[schulr]

nothing against south florida or texas, but I would stay away due to the thermal heat change these cars go through during the summer. The vin check should show where the car has been. If you are looking at a targa, consider reducing the price to cover a rebuild of the top, unless it has been completed recently.

Bob

[old_skul]

Don't let Bruce Anderson convince you that every single 84-89 911 has valve guide problems.

A little-known footnote that he has tossed in about that issue indicates that the reason the guides were wearing is due to an overly rich fuel mixture in the engine, caused by not running at over 3-4000 rpm. The unburned fuel dissolves any lubrication that the guide and the valve have, leaving the guide subject to undue wear.

The moral? Drive the car up to redline every once in a while, and drive the car more than once every three weeks.

Also little known is the fact that they started chroming the valve stems in 1986 to reduce guide wear. It seems to have helped; my car has 130,000 miles and shows no signs of guide wear.

To be certain, though, run it up to 90 or so in third gear, and then just lift off the throttle. Watch your rear view mirror; if there's undue wear on the guides you'll see smoke.

Good luck. Pick a winner.

[911jon]

Just to put the thing in perspective, I have a 75k mile 88 car (89MY) which burns VERY little oil (1 litre/3000 miles) and has no symptoms of guide wear. It is original, feels extremely strong and has been utterly reliable so far. I use it every day.... I can't keep my hands off it....

Good luck in your search. Find a good one and.... have fun!

[lecutis]

hello
I am new to this bbs and new to porsches.
I just finished my first purchase and the car is being delieved in 24 hours.
I did my homework...I think
I too wanted 87 to 89 911 cabriolet
this is what I bought. could use a little input or reassurance that I didn't get ripped off

88 cabriolet 53k miles
texas car with 2 owners
inspection shows 3 oil leaks cam tensioner oil thermostat and oil sending unit.

fresh air blower not working
cruise control not working
ac has leak at evap valve system holding charge
washer pump not working
stitching on rear window needs replacing
no rust

rest of inspection normal
I paid 21k for the car
what do you think?
Any tips on the cruise control?
Any words of wisdom?

peter

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by marcesq
TF:

Sounds like you are on the right track. Get a Pre Purchase Inspection of any potential purchase.

If the seller baulks at the idea, run.

The years in question sport the 3.2, which had some minor problems, which included premature valve guide wear (needed replacing at about 40k), and on some rod bolt problems.

If the engine has been rebuild these problems should be resolved.

The other issue is the cylinder head/cylinder joint, which does not have a gasket. Over time they leak on some engines, and the fix is to replace the pistons/cylinders and have the heads machined to accept a gasket. Others may weigh in here that have had actual experiance with this issue.

It didn't scare me away from grabbing a 3.2 for my '77.

Good luck, and welcome to the board.

You will enjoy your car if you are careful in the process.

PS: there are alot of Pelicanites in Md & Va who would be glad to help with your kicking of tires, etc. Just let me know.

Marc is correct about getting a PPI. Get a thorough one ($50-100) and have someone who really knows check the body for previous damage.
The 3.2 is; by and large, a very reliable motor. The premature valve guide is an isolated thing that has been blown out of proportion IMO.
The 3.6 motors are the ones that had the head/cylinder gasket problem.
The rod bolts are not a problem unless you track the car a lot or run at high RPM. A rebuild may not address this issue.
Note that there are different flavors of "rebuild". It is quite common to do what is called a "top end" rebuild to fix worn out valve guides. This is not a true rebuild as it only replaces the valve guides and some gaskets. Only a complete rebuild will replace the rod bearings.
Up here in the New England I've seen 3.2's with broken or corroded lower head studs. It is rare but worth checking if you aren't buying a car from a dry climate.
Enjoy your quest,
Chris

[83SC in PA]

Originally posted by 911jon
Just to put the thing in perspective, I have a 75k mile 88 car (89MY) which burns VERY little oil (1 litre/3000 miles) and has no symptoms of guide wear. It is original, feels extremely strong and has been utterly reliable so far. I use it every day.... I can't keep my hands off it....

Good luck in your search. Find a good one and.... have fun!

I have an '87 Targa and I echo these comments exactly. My car has 69K and burns little to no oil at all and has been dead reliable. I'm sure some cars have had the guide wear problems but I feel that they are the exception, not the rule.

[jabb]

Who Rebuilt the Engine ???????