Considering a 77 911S Targa, input appreciated!
 

EDIT: Put this first, now that I have more information:

Hey guys…. Looking for help on determining the value on this 911. I know the owner well, so there’s some leeway here, but he was thinking $6-7000. He was also assuming it was just the valve covers that were leaking… but in reality, it’s leaking from basically every mating surface. Since it needs basically a full engine rebuild, is it worth 6k? I mean, without any engine whatsoever, what would it be worth in today’s market?

1977 Porsche 911S
CHASSIS: No rust. Straight. Lots of door dings. Torn off rear swaybar mounts. Rear foam bumpers cracked. One ding in hood from slamming hood down on something too tall.
ENGINE: Supposedly a 2.9 liter conversion (no documentation), supposedly about 50k on it (no documentation). Starts fine. Runs fine. Creates TONS of smoke, from all the leaking oil. Smoke does NOT really come out the exhaust, but is the oil dripping from every mating surface. Leaks from valve covers, from case to cylinders, cylinders to head, all of it. Many of the heater hoses are disintegrating, need to be replaced.
EXHAUST: Shot. Heat exchangers are dead. Rusty, holes, covered with tin foil?! $500-1200). Muffler also dead, full of holes ($150?)
TRANSMISSION: Shifter bushings disintegrated, fell out. Seems like it works fine. Clutch has good engagement. $20 for new bushings
SUSPENSION: Shocks seem fine. Little sloppy. Needs new bushings ($?)
INTERIOR: Dash pad is good. Seams on seats are coming apart. Center dash vent broken. Door cards need to have vinyl reglued. Speedometer reads about 10-15 over what it’s actually doing. ?
WEATHERSTRIPPING: Exterior trim has shrunk around rear window about 2”. All weatherstripping around side windows and targa seal is shot. Targa Seals: Left Top: $148.50 Right Top: $151.75 Main Rear Targa Bar Seal: $220 Windshield Targa Seal: $131.25 rear window seals :$50ish= $700ish for new seals
PAINT: Dead. Burned through with a buffer in many places.
BRAKES: Work great. Rear wheels lock up under hard braking, front ones don’t. ?
WHEELS/TIRES: 15” fuchs, decent shape. Tires have good tread, but 20+ years old.
TARGA: Headliner disintegrating. Needs to be redone. Top looks nice, but starting to shrink, has upturned lip in front, near windshield. $?

I mean, on one hand, it’s a running driving 911. But when it smokes, A LOT. When you park, you create a decent sized smoke screen due to all the oil cooking all over the engine. When I think about all the things that need to be replaced to make it a nice driver, not even to make it a GREAT car… it adds up to about $5,000, without even beginning to fix the paint/dings.
What are your thoughts?


ORIGINAL:


Hey all. I've found myself looking for some advice, as an opportunity popped up that I wasn't expecting. Before I go into details, I'll give you my background so you know where I'm coming from.
Me: Product designer,31, mechanically inclined, I've been doing all my own automotive work since I was 16. I transitioned from musclecars to imports to german stuff, so I think my skill sets/knowledge is pretty well rounded. Here's a list of what I've had:
68 Dodge Charger, 383 magnum, Hurst 4spd, too many mods to list
78 Mercury Marquis Beater, 400, hilarious ghetto cruiser
97 Neon Coupe 5spd, lightly modded for autox, street racing (ha)
92 Subaru SVX, track suspension, stebro exhaust, great car!
89 Accord LX 5spd (went to college)
89 Prelude Si 4ws (more autox)
91 Civic LX (commuter, aero modded for 43mpg)

Now, I'm down to just two cars. A 95 Audi S6 Avant (just finished restoring it)
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...17705898_n.jpg

and a DD 2000 Golf GLS.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...27628351_n.jpg

I also restored a 78 Sleekcraft Aristocrat, and even got featured on buildthreads, which was a pretty huge deal to me. :)

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...70282847_n.jpg
1978 Sleekcraft speedboat | Build Threads

Now... here's the thing. My dad's neighbor is like a second father to me, and as long as I've been around, he's had a 911 that I've lusted after. Recently, he decided to sell it, to clear out space in his garage.

Here are the details:

1977 911 Targa
118k miles
5spd
Black paint, someone was too aggressive with a buffing pad in some places so the paint is worn through to primer a little
Black interior, decent shape
Black Fuchs
118,000 miles
Engine was replaced at around 50k miles with a 2.9 liter (stroker 2.7????)
Runs, drives, no major mechanical issues except oil leak around heat exchanger area.

Now... after doing some preliminary research, I found out the 2.7 is the worst 911 engine ever, and since this is a targa it's also the most undesirable 911 ever. However... he's asking 7k obo for it. I think I could probably scoop it up for 6k, which, again, from my preliminary research, seems like a really good deal.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.... I'm not looking for another project at the moment, but since I literally grew up knowing about this exact car, I am kind of excited to think about owning it. I've also never had a convertible before, so a Targa would be pretty awesome IMHO.

Hopefully you have some engine build notes or details/bills to show service history of the car. You certainly want to know what type of head studs were used in the rebuild. Look to see if the exhaust manifolds were updated from original and if it has the 11 blade cooling fan.
77 should be a galvanized body but the front a arm mounts on the pan will need to be examined for strength. The battery could leak in the trunk and corrode the LF a-arm mount on the chassis and lead to a difficult repair.
You should have a PPI done with someone who knows the aircooled 911's and check compression/leakdown numbers as well.
review this buyers guide and look for other pointers:
Pelican Parts: 911 FAQ Version 2.2

Welcome -
price seems reasonable. But ask yourself if you want THIS 911 or A 911.

Targa guys love 'em, and at that price, as long as it's mechanically solid, you could get back out if you change your mind.

If your budget allows, I believe that in the long run you would be happier with a '78-83 911SC.

The aluminum crankcase 3.0 is a far more robust engine. It is basically a 930 turbo engine without a turbocharger. The crankcase and cooling fan shroud even carry 930 part numbers.

Unless it has been updated, the 2.7 is notorious for pulling head studs out of the crankcase. The '77 911S in particular is not very popular among Porschephiles due to the thermal reactor exhaust system. They tend to run very hot.

The 3.0 (and 3.2) have head stud breakage issues but that is a less expensive fix than repairing a messed up mag case 2.7.

Also understand that these cars are 30+ years old and things WILL break and wear out. Old Porsches, especially inexpensive ones to buy, generally are not inexpensive cars to own.

Yeah, I realize the SC is a better car in power, longevity, resale... etc...

but if it's a rust free 77 with a rebuilt engine, isn't it worth over 10?

I grew up around this particular car.... so to scoop it up for 6ish seems like a deal even if it is the worst 911 ever.

If you are good with the knowledge you have and the condition of the car, and you believe it is a fair price, then go for it.
Oh, btw, Targas Rule! :)

Well... I'm open to suggestion. What other 911s have you seen for sale in the 6-7k price range that run/drive?

If it were me, I'd snatch it up for 6k, at least if you have space to work on it and it sounds like you do. It will be fun to show your neighbor the improvements over time as well. 6K is good if it has no rust and you can fix stuff youself. Targas are fun, I own a 77 as well albeit not stock and love it. I liked it before the engine swap too.
Sounds like a new member to me.

If that's the car that speaks to you, rock on! The only 911's you'll find in that range will also be 2.7L cars, so go with the known quantity.

Just be sure you like the car as-is and aren't planning to spend a lot of time throwing money at it. If so, you'll be happier with a more expensive starting point.

There is a saying in the world of old 911s that goes something like, "They are all $20,000 cars." it may be a bit out of date, as prices and repair / restore costs have been rising a lot recently.
Keep in mind, the engine or transaxle rebuild for this $7000 911 is gonna be roughly the same as those for a $90,000 early S. You can make $10,000 disappear in hard parts very quickly.
I would also say that the desirability of all Targas has been rising as the early soft windows have rekindled interest in this unique design.
The fact that you have a good long knowledge of this car ( was the neighbor the original owner? How much is known prior to his ownership?) is a real positive considering the age of the car. You could spend a ton of time looking at other 911s without ever being as knowledgeable about another one.
Good luck, enjoy the chase. We would like to see pictures, and many here can provide analysis.

Ps. I bought a 1967 Formula S 383 barracuda off the showroom floor in 67. Loved that car...;)

Cash68,

The mid-year cars get a bad rap because of a few issues. You know what you're doing, know the history of the car and can get it for a great price. I say do it.

Good Luck,
Rutager

A 2.9 would be a big bore. I would want to see some documentation on the motor's rebuild. Not sure about the availability of 2.9 cylinders or there durability.

Find out the engine type number and see what it really is through records the owner may have.

Even though I've received tons of very valuable information on this forum, I'm glad I didn't listen to all the horror stories regarding the 76 CIS 2.7 or I never would have purchased mine. I think I broke every rule imaginable. I even did my own PPI. The Pelican Website and PCA even rag on the terrible 76 2.7 and do their best to scare away potential buyers. PCA even says this about the 76 "For the most part, they aren't collectible. They also aren't cars to restore, although you can always improve them bit-by-bit. They aren't cars that will grow dramatically in value anytime soon and won't tend to draw a crowd of Porsche folks to admire. But none of that makes them any less fun". I guess none of the Porsche folks will want to talk to me or admire my car?

Pelican Sez the following:It's a tragic story. Porsche increased the displacement of the 2.4 without providing enough cooling and, to add insult to injury,
the US models had thermal reactors (except for 1974) that got REALLY hot. The result is, among other things, head studs that pulled out of the crank case (due to thermal expansion of the cylinders) and destroyed valve trains. All of this resulted in an average engine life of about 50,000 miles (your mileage may vary --
HA! I was *waiting* to use that line).

1. All 2.7's will have broken head bolts and will require millions to repair. (all mine were fine)
2. Thermal Reactors will fry your engine. (My engine was not fried and I simply removed mine)
3. All 76's have terrible, unstoppable oil leaks. (I replaced my valve cover gaskets, No leaks anywhere)
4. Do not buy the first 5 cars you look at. (I bought the first one I looked at)
5. All 2.7's have warped valve covers (mine were fine)
6. The engine will be screwed because of the 5 blade fan. (I simply bought a used 11 blade fan for $250 and slapped it on)
7. CIS is a piece of crap and will never run right (I cleaned the fuel tank, fuel lines, replaced injectors, fuel filter, rebuilt the WUR, Rebuilt FD, and rebuilt Fuel Pump) She starts and runs like a dream after sitting for 15+ years)
8. I didn't have the luxury of starting and running the engine before I bought it. It had been sitting in a garage for 15+ years and the entire fuel system was a gunked up mess because the fuel was never drained.
9. Be prepared to spend a fortune on the brakes, engine etc. if the car has been sitting more than 10 minutes. (My brakes, suspension, electrical system, gearbox, body, trim, chassis etc. were in almost perfect condition)
11. Don't buy a Targa, the top will leak, rattle and blow out your eardrums at speeds exceeding 15mph. (My top is perfect)
12. Your car will be a rusted out mess if it's not stored in a climate controlled, air conditioned, dehumidified, heated garage. (not one speck of rust anywhere on mine)
13. Your compression will be screwed if the car has been sitting around for an extended period of time. (my numbers turned out just fine)

And I got her for the grand total of $7,500!!

To make a long story short don't believe everything you read. Take your time, do some research and go with your gut as well as your brain.

Again, I have gained lots of valuable information on this forum and I've saved countless hours of my time and tons of MY $$$ by reading the great posts found here! Thank you.

And last but certainly not least, DO NOT EVER SEND YOUR ENGINE TO MOTORMEISTER!!http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1348100631.jpg

A big +1 to what Matt said. I did exactly the same as Matt, first porsche I looked at, I bought. Purchased for $3500.00, have about $4K into it. 2.7L motor, 5 blade fan,(changed out to 11 blade), thermal reactors gone, upgraded chain tensioners installed. All in all, a decent running CIS car with 107K on odometer. Did all the work myself except for paint and upholstery. A fun project. Don't believe all the horror stories you hear about Targas and 2.7 motors. You appear to have the technical knowledge to do the work, and the price is right, so go for it. I am very happy with my car. By the way Matt, is your color Saharra gold metallic? Looks just like mine..

Hi Bob, my color is Sienna Metallic /Diamond Sahara # 436-9-3 . I just upgraded to Carrera tensioners. Oil temp stays right around 200-210 and she goes like a bat out of hell!

Huh..........worst 911 ever. Well that still puts it above a many of cars still ever built :D

Have you looked at prices of XKE's? Mine could eat $6k in a bad moment. A 308 will eat that in one major service with belt change. Point, where can you get a car of this stature for such little money? And its the car that speaks to you! bonus equity

2.7 CIS with thermo reactors = worst engine ever built

2.7 MFI RS = one of sweetest well rounded engines ever built

I know they are different and for what reasons, but still find it funny and it shows the potential of a 7r case and the correct fixes.

Nice S6!

I say go for the 911 (but get all the info you can from the owner and evaluate it first).

Where are you located? I'm sure you have other local Pelicans willing to lend a hand with an in-person review of the car...

Right on, Matt. My story pretty much reads the same way. I would buy it for $6k in a heartbeat. You can't find a car like that in Southern California for that price. That is a bargain. Get it, drive it, and learn.

My mid-year 911 - a '77 - has had all issues addressed and has turned out to be one of the nicest I have driven. I joined PCA and go to meetings frequently as well other social type things - coffee here and there and of course once the chatting is done some driving gets into action. I have driven a few other 911s - newer than mine as well as some older models. I really like the way mine drives - I am very pleased. And I won't flare the fenders! I love the narrow body look.

Targa on OZ
 

A good running 2.7 Targa for $6K, if only. Double that here in OZ. My first Porsche was a Targa and I loved it to bits, my second was a 3.0 Carrera 1976, and I hated it. It was a dog to drive as a DD but great on the track. My current car is a 76 Targa which I am currently rebuilding, and I can't wait to get it on the road. There is more to owning a car than the sum of its parts, you have lusted after THIS car for a long time, if it was a woman you wouldn't hesitate. Go for it.

Here is another '76 that has been problem-free since purchased in 1983. (Note: only California cars had reactors in '76.) I've done all the recommended updates including an oil cooler and my Porsche has been the most enjoyable car I've ever owned. How many years have to go by before the 2.7's that DO have problems get fixed? Ten years? Twenty? Forty? How many miles? 15K? 50K? 100K? All Porsches have potential problem, some more serious than others. But after some time and miles the problems that do exist have to expose themselves and get fixed. Of course do your due diligence, same as you should for a used Ford.

X2. Best response so far.

I bought this 40K mile 77 911S AC sunroof coupe for $2000. Zero rust although some of the paint is lifting off of the galvanizing from setting out in the weather after the PO died. I bought it from his estate. The thermal reactor was long gone as was the 5-blade fan. It is in the shop now for exhaust backdate and tensioner update among other things. Then to the paint shop and a new headliner. Most of the leather is excellent and the dash is perfect. The original seats had a few cracks, so I replaced them with excellent sport seats for the same cost as recovering them. I found a set of new sunvisors and OEM windshied on here. :cool: I have installed a chin spoiler since this photo. I look forward to driving the "worst" 911! :)



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1348153464.jpg

Thank God for the worst 911 ever, they are actually affordable... that is until everyone else catches on!

Really appreciate your input guys! Great response here, and thank you for the reassurance that it isn't a terrible idea.

I had the opportunity to buy this car about 10 years ago before I went to school, but I just couldn't justify parking it outside with street parking. Even though it would have been fun, it would have killed me to see a 911 suffer so much abuse from parallel parking "attempts" and the rust/corrosion from winter duties.

I talked to the owner again last night. He is the 2nd owner. The first owner had the car tuned up somewhere here in Madison WI, and whoever the tech was leaned out the carb a bit too far, causing the engine to seize on the highway. Instead of rebuilding it, a replacement engine was ordered from someplace that allowed you to spec what you wanted. He opted for a 2.9 liter, which is from what I can tell, a "big bore kit" offered by Mahle that came with slightly larger pistons and slightly bored out cylinders. This is the engine that is still in the car. The thermal reactors have been removed (sweet!), but he said there is a definite oil leak onto the heat exchangers; he is guessing it's the valve covers.

I searched on that, and found: Pelican Technical Article: 911 Upgrade to Turbo Valve Covers
So it seems that he's got a good chance at being right, and that the original magnesium valve covers are the culprit. So ... because the car is old, and it hasn't been daily driven in a while, how hard is this job? Ideally I'd kind of like to pull the engine, clean everything, replace seals, etc. Does that sound like overkill for swapping valve covers?

I'll try to get pictures at some point, but it probably won't be for few weeks.

Cheers and thanks again!

To ensure all leaks are gone an engine drop is easiest especially for the engine top triangle of leaks... Get Wayne's 101 projects book, it is all in there. Search this site for oil leaks too.
Good luck, sounds like you've made a decision.
Your next post needs to have pictures of the car! :)

I'd like to add one more thing. I didn't buy my 76 Targa as an investment, I bought it to drive around and have a blast doing so. If you're buying the car as an investment and think you'll recoup all your $$$, forget it buy some savings bonds instead. I also own a 1929 Herreshoff Sailboat and if I kept track of all that I invested in that beautiful boat I'd probably end up taking a chainsaw to it. I keep track of all that I spend on the car but I never have the time to add it all up, I'm having too much fun driving the car!http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1348159217.jpg

Wow I did not realize there were so many "BAD YEAR" 2.7 on this forum. I think my 76 is the best inexpensive real sports car too can buy.

Theyre much better cars than the internet would have you know. Great fun.

You can get the new valve covers or just buy the red silicone rubber valve cover gaskets from Pelican. They worked for me. No leaks from the valve covers after that simple gasket change. My 76 allows me to drive a classy car for not much more than a used Japanese import. How can I beat that? The envy on the faces of the minivan drivers is apparent.

Hey Guys: Small update. Going to look at the car on Sat morning. Pretty excited, but there's really no pressure as the car isn't for sale to the public yet, so I'm not forced to make a quick decision. Couple more questions:

1. So how do I tell if it's a 911 or a 911S?
2. What were some options? I know it has black fuchs and I think foglights.
3. Going to take it for a test drive, I know the oil is leaking onto the exhaust manifolds, but how do I verify it's just a valve cover? Maybe wipe down the lower VC before the test drive, then check when I get back?
4. I know basic body stuff, but where are the worst opportunities for rust?

Pretty excited! :)

75 911s
 

Buy it , Have had mine for 18 years , some upgrades , lots of fun to drive take the step to porsche ownership

Where are the Pictures??

FWIW--

If you do your own work, enjoy it, and do not depend on this car for transportation....you can't go wrong for $6k. You should be able to sell a running, driving 911 for that much pretty easily if you change your mind (you won't).

Also, this is slightly OT --

I haven't read this whole thread but I'm sure people have told you to get a PPI. In my opinion, you'll learn more evaluating the car yourself thoroughly than a PPI will tell you. PPIs are valuable for fully restored concours cars or non-vintage 911s (a 996 for example)...but for all the other cars out there, there is no question you'll find something wrong during a PPI...your car is 30+ years old! Clearly you're not buying this car to be trouble free and maintenance free.

Check out this thread:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/695802-fess-up-did-you-get-ppi-before-buying.html

Not exactly water-tight science, but at least in the thread, the majority of Pelicans don't get a PPI before they buy a car anyway...and for those that do, only 13% find the car to not be as described.

Porsche 911 Fahrzeugidentifikation

Go to this website and select 74-77. It is in German but you will see that doesn't matter. Go to the engine numbers section in red and write down or print the legend. Do the same for the VIN section.
As far as what came stock or options for the given year, you can source out later. If there are spare parts/wheels etc, buy all that stuff too or have them throw it in as part of the deal. Sort it all out later. Check the VIN and Engine number and type and you will confirm what you are starting with. Any service records will hopefully tell you more of a story.
Tracing an oil leak is not a quick wipe and tell. It may take a while to figure out. If it is not running out steady, then that is something we've all had to deal with and fix. Could be from a number of places. Remember that every cylinder is a seperate piece from the next, so there are a lot of mating surfaces to deal with.
For rust, check the battery area and the underside at the front left a-arm bolts. You may even want to lift the battery out of the tray to examine the trunk floor there.
There is a center jack point about mid-door. If you have a jack plate, jack the car so the wheels are off the ground. Open the door and close it. Check for sag at the gaps or ease of opening the doors. Do both sides. (check the parts catalog here to see what the jack pad looks like. If you buy the car, you'll need one.) If you don't have one try and borrow one before you see the car.

Cash68,
According to Peter Zimmerman, the only 911 model imported in 1977 to the US, as in 1976, was the 911S. So that's what you will be looking at unless it is a Euro model. The 1977 has improved cam chain guides versus the 1976. Otherwise the two years are very similar.

Thanks Targa, just wasn't sure if it had the 175 horse mill or the 150 horse version. Glad it's the higher output one, though with the engine being a weird 2.9 liter who really knows what it puts out.

Tony: Thanks for the advice. I still think I'm going to try to clean it up a bit before test driving it. If I see leaks from the cylinders to the block.. well... I'll lower my price more. If it's just the valve covers... should be pretty simple to fix up. :) Thanks for the rust tips. I'll post some pictures this weekend.

According to Andial, the marketer of the 2.9 kit for the 2.7 motor using Mahle P/C, the horsepower increase is about 25 hp. You can search old threads on this forum for more particulars. Since the stock 2.7 was around 165, add another 25 and get maybe 190. Probably it has better low end than the standard 2.7. Check what cooling the car has. It may require an external cooler if it does not already have one. Whatever, it sounds like a nice deal to me. Take lots of pics, especially of the engine, and report back.