Dumb question...

[Beau]

This is my first foray into the 911 forum, but it's also the first time I can afford one. My dumb question is, why does every Pelican sales post of a 911 tout AC & sunroof deletes as a positive thing? I live in the south, and having both would be a major plus for me.

I'm sure there's at least one thread, if not many, explaining exactly why yanking those two systems out is a good thing. I can understand removing the AC for performance reasons, but the sunroof? Is it aesthetic, or what? There have been a few cars posted that I'd have pulled the trigger on, but every one stated that there was a recent AC delete. Dangit, it's hot down here...I want air conditioning. Surely it's not that much of a liability, is it?

Anyway, if someone would be kind enough to point me to a link of the thread that explains exactly why this is so, I'd appreciate it. Just one link. Everyone else, feel free to rail on the newbie for his utter ignorance.

[Dantilla]

Sunroof takes away headroom, and adds weight at the very top of the car.

I don't fit in a sunroof-equipped 911 with a helmet on.

[db_cooper]

I'm with you..the sunroof and A/C are a life support system in a 911 down south.

A/C delete is just a performance or easy service mod..

No sunroof makes for a little more headroom..and maybe a stiffer or more rigid chassis..

In that I'm not entering the 911 into any competitive racing..I will keep my sunroof and A/C too.

[darrin]

on the AC front, keep in mind that a factory/stock ac system is minimally effective at best. There are, however, folks that have devised modifications that can significantly improve the ac experience.

[Beau]

Originally Posted by Dantilla

Sunroof takes away headroom, and adds weight at the very top of the car.

I don't fit in a sunroof-equipped 911 with a helmet on.

I can understand that, but I've seen cherry rides with sunroof deletes. I can see a roller or a track car, but why do that to a virgin ride? Then again, there's that cat with the 930 for sale...you know the one, the guy who has a ton of views but no offers. Ridiculous whale tail and whatnot.

Originally Posted by db_cooper

I'm with you..the sunroof and A/C are a life support system in a 911 down south.

A/C delete is just a performance or easy service mod..

No sunroof makes for a little more headroom..and maybe a stiffer or more rigid chassis..

In that I'm not entering the 911 into any competitive racing..I will keep my sunroof and A/C too.

I'm 5'11, and in my 944 I have about 2" of clearance, but my sunroof is there & operable. As long as I don't roll it, I'm happy.

Thanks for the replies!

[Poor-sche Lover]

Yeah, I think most people remove the A/C because it is a terribly bad system that doesn't work very well, even when it "works." It can be modified to work, but it's pretty expensive. It's cheaper to just put the windows down. It also cleans up the "look" of the engine compartment, as well as removes a bit of weight.

As for the sunroof, yes, the racers/taller people like to have a bit more headroom, but I think it also comes back to poor performance. The sunroof tends to be a point of failure. When they fail, they tend to leak. So, people don't want them because of the opportunity of leaking.

[Beau]

Originally Posted by darrin

on the AC front, keep in mind that a factory/stock ac system is minimally effective at best.

Is it that bad on a 911? I know I'm showing my ignorance here, but my 944's A/C is arctic cold. I expect some downgrade in AC performance from an air-cooled engine, but not lukewarm air.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by Beau

This is my first foray into the 911 forum, but it's also the first time I can afford one. My dumb question is, why does every Pelican sales post of a 911 tout AC & sunroof deletes as a positive thing? I live in the south, and having both would be a major plus for me.

I'm sure there's at least one thread, if not many, explaining exactly why yanking those two systems out is a good thing. I can understand removing the AC for performance reasons, but the sunroof? Is it aesthetic, or what? There have been a few cars posted that I'd have pulled the trigger on, but every one stated that there was a recent AC delete. Dangit, it's hot down here...I want air conditioning. Surely it's not that much of a liability, is it?

Anyway, if someone would be kind enough to point me to a link of the thread that explains exactly why this is so, I'd appreciate it. Just one link. Everyone else, feel free to rail on the newbie for his utter ignorance.

There are no dumb questions, only dumb people.



There are plenty of places where AC (especially the semi-functional factory AC) is nothing more than added weight and complexity. And for those folks who take their cars to the track, added weight is exactly what you don't want. For folks looking for a track car, or those folks who live in a climate where AC is optional, AC delete might be an attractive negotiating point. Or for those folks looking to do the full AC upgrade to the "good stuff", not having the factory gear in place might also make sense.

I have often thought about how nice it would be to have a solid roof - no holes cut in it for sunroof, no added electrical motors or tracks or cables. And the extra headroom would be great. I don't need the sunroof for ventilation, so all it does right now is sit there and look pretty.

So, as a platform for AC mods and removing weight, the AC/sunroof delete car might be an excellent starting point. Negotiate $1500 off for the AC, and you're really heading in the right direction for doing a Griffiths full WORKING AC install.

[Beau]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

There are no dumb questions, only dumb people.



There are plenty of places where AC (especially the semi-functional factory AC) is nothing more than added weight and complexity. And for those folks who take their cars to the track, added weight is exactly what you don't want. For folks looking for a track car, or those folks who live in a climate where AC is optional, AC delete might be an attractive negotiating point. Or for those folks looking to do the full AC upgrade to the "good stuff", not having the factory gear in place might also make sense.

I have often thought about how nice it would be to have a solid roof - no holes cut in it for sunroof, no added electrical motors or tracks or cables. And the extra headroom would be great. I don't need the sunroof for ventilation, so all it does right now is sit there and look pretty.

So, as a platform for AC mods and removing weight, the AC/sunroof delete car might be an excellent starting point. Negotiate $1500 off for the AC, and you're really heading in the right direction for doing a Griffiths full WORKING AC install.

Thanks so much for your post, it explains a lot, and also gave me a bargaining point for when I do buy a 911.

I'll Google 'Griffiths A/C install' to see what I'm getting into well before I buy.

[Dantilla]

Originally Posted by Beau

I'm 5'11, and in my 944 I have about 2" of clearance, but my sunroof is there & operable. As long as I don't roll it, I'm happy.

Thanks for the replies!

The 944's tilt-up/removable sunroof does not take up the headroom of the 911's slider. When Autocrossing a 944 with stock seats and a helmet, I tilt the sunroof up a bit for adequate headroom.

I also have a 944 race car. The sunroof must remain closed for racing, but with a proper race seat, there is enough headroom with the roof closed. The driver sits much lower in a race seat compared to the factory Barcaloungers.

[Dave Colangelo]

I agree that the sunroof is a nice additive but the AC is what it is. I have a 78 targa that never had AC, its black on black and I dont mind it that much in the summer. As stated here the AC in the 911 is only borderline functional. A decent upgrade will cost you in the 1500 range and many 911 owners would rather spend that on some thing more mechanically important. I have found that many people who DD there 911's care more about the AC than others. You should not have a problem finding a decent sunroof car with AC. If its one or the other I say look for a sun roof car, you can always add AC far easier than you can add a sunroof.

Regards
Dave

[Daves911L]

Well, Its a matter of personal choice I suppose. I like these cars because of their simplicity and sense of purpose.

For the sunroof, its a bit of extra weight (not much really, but unnecessary). Its a little bit of extra complexity (something else to break down and fix). Its a little point of weakness (leaks of water or wind noise). A bit of aesthetic clutter (a little black line interrupting the flow of the roof). And it doesn't add anything useful really. Its a tiny slit of a sunroof. I'm short and so sit far enough forward I sure can't look up and see the sky. At best it just sunburns the bald spot at the back of my head. On balance why even have one? And for a new car there is cost too. Both of our Audis, purchased new, were intentionally ordered sans sunroof. Possibly the only two in NA without sunroofs? Saved probably close to 4 grand total by not getting something I didn't need or want.

Similar story for AC. Adds weight (quite a bit!). Extra complexity (leaks and breakdowns). Aesthetic clutter in the engine compartment, and makes servicing a little more difficult. Adds heat to the engine compartment, which can certainly be managed, but isn't it better not to have it in the first place? And then one gets to the fact that a perfect Porsche AC system will keep you somewhat less comfortable than a leaky 20 year old Chevy AC. They just didn't work that great. I believe there are some decent aftermarket fixes for this now, but I have no experience with any of them so not qualified to comment. Then there is the attitude. A Porsche is to drive, not to ride in. If I'm worried about 68 degree quiet comfort, I'm on the wrong forum. That's why we have windows. Roll em down a bit and if the air flow isn't enough, speed up. The rear pop outs allow nice airflow and let you keep closer aural tabs on what the motor is saying.

[Beau]

Originally Posted by Daves911L

Then there is the attitude. A Porsche is to drive, not to ride in. If I'm worried about 68 degree quiet comfort, I'm on the wrong forum. That's why we have windows. Roll em down a bit and if the air flow isn't enough, speed up. The rear pop outs allow nice airflow and let you keep closer aural tabs on what the motor is saying.

I don't know where you live, but in the deep south, airflow isn't enough. 100+ degrees Fahrenheit plus 90% + humidity = a very uncomfortable drive. Rolling down the windows doesn't help when you're in traffic, either.

I know this only because the radiator relay in my 944 died recently, and I had to turn off the A/C and roll down the windows. It sucked. Fortunately PP got a new relay to me quickly.

[wayner]

Some people see cup holders as blasphemy. They'll never understand air conditioning

[Daves911L]

Beau (good deep south name!),
I live in New Mexico. 100 degrees, 10% humidity. Yeah, thats considerably better than 100% humidity. But I grew up in Texas. Experienced quite a bit of 100 degree, 70-99% humidity. And had many early 911s with no AC back then. Drove a 911 across the deep south two years ago this month, with no AC, and lived to tell the tale! It was hot in the afternoons. But you get used to it. I'm of an era when AC was still considered a luxury rather than a necessity. Maybe that has something to do with it. The knowledge that being hot and sticky is only temporary and you're not going to die from it.

[Josh D]

Sunroof delete car and I installed a great working aftermarket A/C system. Exactly what I wanted.
I live where driving during the summer without A/C isn't just uncomfortable, it can be hazardous to your health!

[Dantilla]

In the Seattle area, Air Conditioning is desireable about six days a year.

[Arne2]

Bear in mind that when the car is touted as "sunroof delete", that doesn't mean it had one and it was later removed. (Or not generally.) It means that it was custom ordered to NOT come with the sunroof at all. Most dealers would not order them w/o sunroofs for stock.

[Tidybuoy]

When I bought my '74, I was dissapointed that it did not have a sunroof. The former owner, who is a top Porsche mechanic and big auto-x'r told me that the sunroof delete option was a good thing and that many 911 racers look for that.

I was still disapointed....initially. Now that I have had the car for quite a while, I like it. Mostly because it doesn't squeek, ever. On my 944, which has a very large sunroof, the most annoying part of the car is the squeek that you get when turning on bumpy roads and you can literally feel the body flex. My 911 feels very solid without the sunroof.

Ohh, the AC was also deleted but I don't care - I'm putting that back.

[Tidybuoy]

Originally Posted by Beau

Is it that bad on a 911? I know I'm showing my ignorance here, but my 944's A/C is arctic cold. I expect some downgrade in AC performance from an air-cooled engine, but not lukewarm air.

The 944 AC is a great system and as good as any modern car. My '88 944 will freeze my fingers off. The 911 stock AC system is terrible. However, there are great aftermarket upgrades (which include under the driver rear fender condensors with fans) and these get added to the stock system (not replace). I know a friend that just added a $3k system to his 911 and it's now as good as the 944.