Considering a 3.2 / 964 and have some questions

[r-mm]

Hi everyone

I'm presently restoring a 73 Alfa GTV and have a very reliable japanese transportation hatchback. I don't comute by car, I drive less than 5k miles a year, and I've lately been tempted to complicate my life with a more interesting car. Doesn't hurt that my fiance (and I) have always liked the looks, sounds and quality of a 911.

I don't want to spend over 20k and I want to know if I can get a no-stories 3.2 or 964 within my budget. I have a garage and can do all my own work (doing a bare metal rebuild on the alfa) - but like most of you have limited will/ability to get into serious fiddling with electronics, so the 964 is little bit of a turnoff. However when I've causally browsed for 911's in years past it seemed that 964s were unloved and inexpensive - but it now seems that the 993's have inherited that mantle and that 964s/3.2s are both viewed as very desirable 'classic' cars with prices to match.

The others on the short list are E30 M3 (hens teeth and probably more expensive if maybe a better store of value) and E36 M3 which is maybe the only car on my list that I think I could be ultra picky about and still buy for well under 20k if not half that.

Would love some opinions.

PS wondering if Whale Tails are easily removed and what if any paint work must be done in response.

[Nico911]

Well, for 20k$, I think it's a little short for good 3,2L or a 964. Maybe a 3,0L SC would be more within your budget. I'm in the same situation that you right now (looking for a SC, 3,2 or 964), but I don't have your mechanical skills ! Good for you.

About the tails, yes, I believe they are easy to remove. I was asking myself the same question when considering a 1987 Carrera with a big turbo type spoiler that I would have removed. I found that these spoilers are just bolt in units, nothing more. But maybe the hidden part of the hood would have a little mismatch paint due to less sun exposure for years.

I recommend you to get one of these Adrian Crawford's buyer guide available online for about 40$. You'll be able to do the pre purchase inspection pretty much by yourself. It helped me to step back from that Carrera I was considering. But still, a PPI is good to confirm your feelings about a car, but I would do it after a car passes my own inspection first.

One more thing : I believe the 1987-88-89 3,2L Carrera are the most likely to become collectable in the near future. They were the last ''classic'' 911 and equipped with the G50 transmission. But they cost about 25k$ or more, it's up to you.

There you go for some good info about the SC :
http://www.pca.org/Panorama/HowToBuyAnEntryLevelPorsche/Buyinga911SC.aspx

Hope I'm helping here.

[mfyoung1086]

You can pick up a nice, not concurs, but nice 3.2 for under 20k

Look at the cars for sale section here, its gives you the best sampling of whats out there on the market at what price

[Drisump]

I'm not sure about the 20k budget but five years ago I bought my 71k miles 85 for less than that. As this forum will confirm "they are all 20K cars".....it may take a few months or the first year but even a very good deal will have issues and deficiencies that will likely get you to 20k pretty fast. I put on about 5K miles every year just on my 911 and she's never left me stranded...other than running out of gas on the California coast. I can't comment on the 964 as an owner, but I have driven one. Although the same DNA, they are quite different cars, much more modern in driving. Coil springs, ABS, power steering (4wd in the Carrera 4) amongst other refinements make it quite a different driving experience. The 3.2 can be worked on by a normal guy with some tools even if it is a bit challenging with the space limitations. I'm not sure what you mean about the 993 being the unloved, inexpensive one currently.....they seem to be pretty bleeding expensive to me. 996s however.... I was considering an M3 a couple of years ago but found the only somewhat unmolested ones were in the stratosphere price wise, that is, IF you could find one. Anyway, I love my 85 (915 tranny and all) , it's a comfortable long distance cruiser (a little loud for some) and a fun twisties skateboard all in one package. Good luck....go with a 911.. any flavour.

[GaryR]

You can find a nice 964 for under $25K but $20K is pushing it. If you live in a hot climate I would up my budget and get a 964 just for the much better A/C system. You also get a twin-plugged 3.6L engine, coil-over shocks, and still have the original 911 "frog-eye" look. A 92-93 will give you aero mirrors and the updated motor (head gaskets) though many of the pre-92's have been retro fitted. I would think for the $20K you would be able to find a very good 3.2 and possibly one with a top end rebuild and updated A/C if you look hard enough.

[Unobtanium-inc]

Not trying to be argumentative, but buying a $40 book so you can do your own PPI is a terrible idea, in my opinion anyway. Spending a few hundred dollars on a thorough PPI performed by a qualified Porsche specialist is the best money you could spend before buying a 25-year-old Porsche. I don't think Mr. Crawford's book is going to help you get leakdown numbers or find a broken head stud. The suggestion to use it as a first defense before spending the money on a PPI might be a little better. I firmly believe that you should never buy an SC or Carrera without a proper PPI. There are just too many systems that are so costly to repair when compared to the older manual-everything cars.

I think you can get into a very nice Carrera for $20k or less. You won't walk up to a dealership and get that price, but if you keep your eye on the Pelican boards (or maybe eBay) you will be able to find a well cared for example with perhaps a couple of minuses that you can live with in terms of wear. You won't be buying the low mileage example that has just had a $10,000 engine refresh, newly recovered seats and dash, and two sets of Fuchs, but you can get something you will fall in love with. -- Matt

[porterdog]

You should be able to find a well loved but serviceable 964 in that price range. Try the other p-car forum's 964 area; it's a little more active than the one here.

[r-mm]

Thanks all - useful comments here.

Is there a price pecking order for Targa/Cab/Coupe? I heavily prefer the latter but could live with the right targa.

If anyone knows cars in my range for sale in CT or the tri-state area, please drop me a line.

[Dan J]

I think you can find a very decent 3.2 , reasonable 964 or super nice SC for 20K
I'd drive all 3 and see which talks to you. The tri state area has lot's of these cars
ranging from total crap to mint. I prefer coupe's personally. Whale tails come off easy
with little bodywork. I agree with Mr unobtanium about the PPI it's money well spent
I'm in Ct if I can help let me know

[kidrock]

Coupe's are preferred due to their rigidity, and hold their value better. I like having my top off. So really, whatever floats your boat.

If you do your homework and look hard enough, you'll find a fine Carrera for less than $20K. But I've noticed that the value is going up quickly.

[Drisump]

The Targas go usually for less than the Cabs and Coupes. The chassis of the coupe is a bit stiffer, lighter and has a more "correct" 911 look. Myself, I have a Targa because I find it a great compromise between the fun, noise and wind that IMHO the cab and coupe don't have (too much hiway wind in the cab, too little wind and noise in the coupe...LOL). My lid is rarely on, even at hiway speeds. Even though I must confess that I like the looks of the coupe more, I can't see it when I'm driving anyhow. Cheers

[r-mm]

I think I'm going to put my foot down and get a coupe. We have an S2000, on which the top is down for 90% of the year.
Values do seem to be moving (up) but outside ebay, which is a strange market unto itself, its always hard to know what cars actually go for - every time I've bought or sold a car privately there has been 10-25% negotiation from posted asking price.

[Hnichols]

My recent (spring '12) experience would confirm the comments above that you can get a good 3.2 for less than 20K, unless you insist on a car with <100K mi. My '88 was 17K, plus shipping and replacing the whale tail put it close to $19K.

If I didn't do so much city driving, I wouldn't have hesitated to buy a 915 car, either Carrera or SC, for generally less $$.

I would check craigslist ads from large metro areas (esp. in CA) throughout the country -- increases the chances of finding a good one. Somewhere here in the archives someone here posted a really useful link that automatically connects you to 911 ads on craigslist throughout the USA.

As for the whale tail, I removed the entire engine lid, bought a used, tailless lid here for abut $250, and had it professionally stripped and painted for $600. So if you go that route, expect to add about 1K to your price. In retrospect, I think I would have simply unbolted the tail and plugged the 5 screw holes.

Since you have a GTV (a beautiful car, IMO) and an s2000, you have good taste in automobiles. A 911 would be a worthy addition to the fleet. Good luck!

[Nico911]

Originally Posted by Unobtanium-inc

Not trying to be argumentative, but buying a $40 book so you can do your own PPI is a terrible idea, in my opinion anyway. Spending a few hundred dollars on a thorough PPI performed by a qualified Porsche specialist is the best money you could spend before buying a 25-year-old Porsche. I don't think Mr. Crawford's book is going to help you get leakdown numbers or find a broken head stud. The suggestion to use it as a first defense before spending the money on a PPI might be a little better. I firmly believe that you should never buy an SC or Carrera without a proper PPI. There are just too many systems that are so costly to repair when compared to the older manual-everything cars.

That is not what I said. My point is : it is useless to get a 200$ (or more) PPI if you can already determine if a car is ok or not, according to what you look for. What's the point getting a PPI if you can find out by yourself the engine is not matching the chassis, the car has been crashed and repainted, speedo clocked, pistons rings needs replacement, etc, etc... I'm far from being a mechanic but I can figure that by myself. Then, after, if a car passes my basic requirements, I would go on with a full inspection for sure. I learned to rely on myself first, and that served my well. So far, it saved me from two money pits (to be polite), for free (I mean 40$)...

[r-mm]

Are there any free versions of a parts diagram or service manual around? I know the Alfa Owners Club will send you one for the cost of the blank CD. Would love to get a feel for what's where on these cars.

EDIT - found one straight from the source! http://www.porsche.com/all/media/pdf/originalparts/en/E_911_89_KATALOG.pdf

Found a clean looking car that I'm going to take a look at. Wondering what the hot issues for 3.2's with ~100k are? I know AC is lacking / often replaced but what else? Valve guides? Front/rear main seals? I understand the G50 itself is fairly indestructible but how about clutches and related drivetrain issues?

[AlfonsoR]

I don't know if you've heard of a guy by the name of Peter Zimmerman, but he is reknowned and well respected in Porsche circles here in the US. He currently has his SC 3.0 for sale. Not sure how much he wants for it, but rest assured it is in tip-top shape mechanically and it looks pretty good cosmetically too.

Unless he wants crazy money for it, and if I were in your shoes, I would buy this over anything else (similar) including any G50 car. He has it listed on Rennlist. Unfortunately I do not know how to provide a direct link to his forum post but this is essentially the path, if you will...

Rennlist.com/ Web Forums/ Browse Forums/ 911 forums/ One Beautiful, High-Mileage

[Tippy]

The fact you are turned off by electronics, to me, places you inline with the C3.2. Only electronics are the engine management (off the top of my head). Everything else is very simple and straightforward IMO.

[sm70911]

The 78 - 89 911's are great cars. Don't be put off by nonsense about G50 coupes alone being the most desirable / collectable model. The 915 is a great transmission (and is lighter than the G50) If you enjoy the GTV, you will enjoy the 915. Like Bill Rudtner says ' never force it, just two fingers to shift'

Re PPI. Its critical. But always do your research in selecting an independent shop near the car you like, and it is well worth the $3-400 for a very thorough PPI at a shop you trust.

Lastly there are a couple of Pelicans who help with purchases. This is for the love of the marque, certainly not the money. I'm on the east coast but bought my car (low mile 3.2 in OG paint, and desirable color combo) in CA, and could not have done it without the help of one of our members. it was about the cost of two decent dinners out. PM me if you want his info.

Collectable ? my 2c : don't buy any car based on whats collectable unless someone who is not in some obscure foreign diplomatic service and knows your thrice removed deceased cousin or Nigerian offers you a matching number, complete, highly optioned, running, one owner, no rust, MFI intact, original paint in a rare color early 911S for less than $70k

[r-mm]

Originally Posted by sm70911

The 78 - 89 911's are great cars. Don't be put off by nonsense about G50 coupes alone being the most desirable / collectable model. The 915 is a great transmission (and is lighter than the G50) If you enjoy the GTV, you will enjoy the 915. Like Bill Rudtner says ' never force it, just two fingers to shift'

Thanks this description of the 915 helps. I am not worried about the shifting as I don't do a grinding urban commute but longevity is a concern. I've read ads for several SCs or early 3.2s stating that the transmission was rebuilt. Is this a concern? Here is one such car (and BTW a very nice looking car in an excellent color combo - anyone in the middle of nowhere texas?) Porsche : 911 911 SC in Porsche | eBay Motors

[Nico911]

+ 1 about Nigeria... !