AC install

[brads911sc]

For that he will recommend that you buy some spray on insulation.

Originally Posted by wwest

If you have a BLACK/dark interior, no window tint, and have done nothing to insulate the car otherwise from heat intrusion or cooling out-welling then I truly feel for you.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

For that he will recommend that you buy some spray on insulation.

And yet my 95 Audi UrS6, with a black interior, here in E. WA, with it's much larger interior volume and R134a working fluid, could freeze my ass out of the car during the summer - at idle, at speed, any time.

And my '97 Ford F150, on regular AC, can reduce the interior of the cab to meat locker temps in minutes while towing a boat during the summer.

No, it's not the system that's the problem, it's the fact that there needs to be electric fans pulling air through the condenser.

What a crock of crap. Have you seen the evaporators in any garden variety Audi? They must hold three or four times the volume of working fluid as does the 911 evaporator. The truck evaporator is a gigantic thing. When I saw the size of the evaporator in the Porsche, I puzzled at how much smaller it was than any automotive evaporator I'd seen. Area matters.

wwest will no doubt bring another subject change to the table here. Later on, I'll have to do a linear logic smackdown of his latest long reply to me. The red herrings and non sequiturs are breath-taking.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

No one said it couldn't be part of the solution. I have a fender condenser with a fan. It really does exactly what you say.

The issue is that the airflow over the deck condensor is only 10% of the shortcoming of the 911 AC system. At any RPM over 1700 or so its not doing anything...

Yes, and if you could keep the RPM always above 1700....

It also raises engine temps beyond 9 oclock.

First, and possibly foremost, is that really truly a problem? How high does that indicator get when you drive the car really hard, all out? Secondarily, are you sure it isn't the extra work that the compressor does, more load on the engine, resulting from now adequate condensr cooling that causes the rise?

There are quite a few of us that have tried it.

And a goodly number of those are reporting SUCCESS!

Finally, when doing the tradeoff with engine temps and the improvement its not there.. because you haven't addressed most of the underlying issues.

Yes, there might be, maybe even are, underlying issues. But, why not try the less expensive solution first?

If I am driving along at 80 mph, at 3000 rpm, pressures correct, and im still sweating, then adding fans is immaterial. if i can update components and increase capacity with additional condensers, better evaps and more air volume and have temps where I do not sweat, then I would think that proves that while the fan may marginally assist at idle, it is only part of the equation. The fan is secondary...

Your argument is not really logical.

.....

[wwest]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

And yet my 95 Audi UrS6, with a black interior, here in E. WA, with it's much larger interior volume and R134a working fluid, could freeze my ass out of the car during the summer - at idle, at speed, any time.

And my '97 Ford F150, on regular AC, can reduce the interior of the cab to meat locker temps in minutes while towing a boat during the summer.

Yes, and I'll bet that even the Audi has a longitudinally oriented engine, as does the Ford, that uses an engine driven (virtually unlimited HP) condensor/radiator cooling fan along with a shroud that results in forced airflow being spread across the full CSA of both.

No, it's not the system that's the problem, it's the fact that there needs to be electric fans pulling air through the condenser.

Or an engine driven, "over-driven", condensor/radiator cooling fan, "clutched" using a VC integral to the fan hub such that the engine HP is only used as needed.

What a crock of crap. Have you seen the evaporators in any garden variety Audi? They must hold three or four times the volume of working fluid as does the 911 evaporator. The truck evaporator is a gigantic thing.

Do you mean evaporators or condensors? If evaporators may I say BS to that? For well more than 20 years now the design goal for automotive A/C evaporators has been to downsize them, make them more compact, to allow more room for airbags, GPS touchscreens, DVD players, etc, etc.

That's the reason for the current rash of mold and mildew odor complaints, windhield fogging, etc.

When I saw the size of the evaporator in the Porsche, I puzzled at how much smaller it was than any automotive evaporator I'd seen. Area matters.

You seem to be equating volume to area, which is not the case with modern day A/C cooling evaporators. The evaporator for my '92 LS400 has over 10,000 square inches of cooling vane surface area but significantly lower in volume than the one from my 84 T-bird with only 4,000 square inches of cooling vane surface area. The idea is to improve the heat transfer efficiency NOT the refrigerant volume.

wwest will no doubt bring another subject change to the table here. Later on, I'll have to do a linear logic smackdown of his latest long reply to me. The red herrings and non sequiturs are breath-taking.

It isn't the size of the XXX but how you put it to use.

[Hugh R]

Interesting thread. I have an ROW 84 Targa that didn't originally have A/C. What was added on by some PO, was a Seiko compressor, a deck lid condenser, a L/R wheel well condenser, an 18" by 18" under pan condenser and a factory front condenser. I converted it to R134a and put in barrier hoses, a 134a receiver/drier and 134 expansion valve. I also put in a "Jim Sims subcooler", per a thread he did on how to make one. I got OK temps (20 degree diff between inside and ambient) , but noticed that when I left the house in August to go to the store it would cool down nicely, but not cool hardly at all on the way home. I concluded, right or wrong, that the deck lid condenser was getting heat soaked in the parking lot. I removed the deck lid condenser and found that at least it stayed as poorly cooled from then on to and from the store. I also found the engine temp was a lot lower. With a Targa, and a black interior, I don't know if I can get much better.

My air velocity sucks, I'd like to get a better blower fan for the evaporator.

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

Interesting thread. I have an ROW 84 Targa that didn't originally have A/C. What was added on by some PO, was a Seiko compressor, a deck lid condenser, a L/R wheel well condenser, an 18" by 18" under pan condenser and a factory front condenser. I converted it to R134a and put in barrier hoses, a 134a receiver/drier and 134 expansion valve. I also put in a "Jim Sims subcooler", per a thread he did on how to make one. I got OK temps (20 degree diff between inside and ambient) , but noticed that when I left the house in August to go to the store it would cool down nicely, but not cool hardly at all on the way home. I concluded, right or wrong, that the deck lid condenser was getting heat soaked in the parking lot. I removed the deck lid condenser and found that at least it stayed as poorly cooled from then on to and from the store. I also found the engine temp was a lot lower. With a Targa, and a black interior, I don't know if I can get much better.

My air velocity sucks, I'd like to get a better blower fan for the evaporator.

Something is wrong there, I've got the factory rear and the desert duty front with a pro-cooler and I'm getting a lot better efficiency than that. And it's hot here, like above a 100, often.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

Interesting thread. I have an ROW 84 Targa that didn't originally have A/C. What was added on by some PO, was a Seiko compressor, a deck lid condenser, a L/R wheel well condenser, an 18" by 18" under pan condenser and a factory front condenser. I converted it to R134a and put in barrier hoses, a 134a receiver/drier and 134 expansion valve. I also put in a "Jim Sims subcooler", per a thread he did on how to make one. I got OK temps (20 degree diff between inside and ambient) , but noticed that when I left the house in August to go to the store it would cool down nicely, but not cool hardly at all on the way home. I concluded, right or wrong, that the deck lid condenser was getting heat soaked in the parking lot. I removed the deck lid condenser and found that at least it stayed as poorly cooled from then on to and from the store. I also found the engine temp was a lot lower. With a Targa, and a black interior, I don't know if I can get much better.

My air velocity sucks, I'd like to get a better blower fan for the evaporator.

Kuehl to the rescue. Seriously, you need someone with Kuehl's skills and experience to troubleshoot your system.

[pavegeno]

1. Read Keuhl's website

2. Called and talked to him

2. Bought Keuhl's stuff

3. Everything got delivered to my house exactly as he said it would

4. Mechanic installed Keuhl stuff with zero issues, missing parts, or quality defects

5. System worked exactly as advertised except I had some initial problems with condenser freezing which turned out to be improper probe placement in the evap by my mech despite the printed instructions clearly showing the right way to do it. Corrected probe placement. No problems. Even had an engine rebuild and went to turn the a/c on the Sunday after I picked the car up and it didn't work. I called Keuhl and left a message figuring I'd get a call back the next business day. He called me 10 minutes later and stayed on the line diagnosing the system and identified that they forgot to reconnect the high/low pressure cutoff. Reconnected it. System worked perfectly and saved my Sunday afternoon drive through the southern Virginia countryside.

6. System has been in 4.5 years and I have lived in NW Florida, southern Virginia, Texas and Hawaii. (military guy so I move a lot) Constant 29-35 degree vent temps. I run the variable fan about 60% of max and the temp selector about 60% of max cold. Car is my daily driver so I have 4 summers in hot places in my dark blue interior cab. Car sits in a parking lot with a sunshield in the windshield. Rear plastic window gets condensation on it becuase of the performance of the system. Wife constantly asks me to turn the fan speed down as I like it really cold. Engine temp stays below 9 o'clock regardless of OAT.

7. No freon added in the last several years.

8. Words and claims are meaningless...your customers will sell your product based on performance and customer service.

9. I could care less about fans, thermodynamics, compressors, temps, txvs, binary, trinary switches, etc. I just want my car ice cold. It is.

10. Anyone can pm me if you are interested in more info.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

Interesting thread. I have an ROW 84 Targa that didn't originally have A/C. What was added on by some PO, was a Seiko compressor, a deck lid condenser, a L/R wheel well condenser, an 18" by 18" under pan condenser and a factory front condenser. I converted it to R134a and put in barrier hoses, a 134a receiver/drier and 134 expansion valve. I also put in a "Jim Sims subcooler", per a thread he did on how to make one. I got OK temps (20 degree diff between inside and ambient) , but noticed that when I left the house in August to go to the store it would cool down nicely, but not cool hardly at all on the way home. I concluded, right or wrong, that the deck lid condenser was getting heat soaked in the parking lot. I removed the deck lid condenser and found that at least it stayed as poorly cooled from then on to and from the store. I also found the engine temp was a lot lower. With a Targa, and a black interior, I don't know if I can get much better.

My air velocity sucks, I'd like to get a better blower fan for the evaporator.

Remember that the SLOWER the airflow volume moves through the evaporator the cooler it will become, to a point.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by pavegeno

1. Read Keuhl's website

2. Called and talked to him

2. Bought Keuhl's stuff

3. Everything got delivered to my house exactly as he said it would

4. Mechanic installed Keuhl stuff with zero issues, missing parts, or quality defects

5. System worked exactly as advertised except I had some initial problems with condenser freezing which turned out to be improper probe placement in the evap by my mech despite the printed instructions clearly showing the right way to do it. Corrected probe placement. No problems. Even had an engine rebuild and went to turn the a/c on the Sunday after I picked the car up and it didn't work. I called Keuhl and left a message figuring I'd get a call back the next business day. He called me 10 minutes later and stayed on the line diagnosing the system and identified that they forgot to reconnect the high/low pressure cutoff. Reconnected it. System worked perfectly and saved my Sunday afternoon drive through the southern Virginia countryside.

6. System has been in 4.5 years and I have lived in NW Florida, southern Virginia, Texas and Hawaii. (military guy so I move a lot) Constant 29-35 degree vent temps. I run the variable fan about 60% of max and the temp selector about 60% of max cold. Car is my daily driver so I have 4 summers in hot places in my dark blue interior cab. Car sits in a parking lot with a sunshield in the windshield. Rear plastic window gets condensation on it becuase of the performance of the system. Wife constantly asks me to turn the fan speed down as I like it really cold. Engine temp stays below 9 o'clock regardless of OAT.

7. No freon added in the last several years.

8. Words and claims are meaningless...your customers will sell your product based on performance and customer service.

9. I could care less about fans, thermodynamics, compressors, temps, txvs, binary, trinary switches, etc. I just want my car ice cold. It is.

10. Anyone can pm me if you are interested in more info.

You don't say how much $$$

Military pay must have changed a LOT since my time.

[pavegeno]

How much did I pay? Same as anyone else.
Porsche Air Conditioning

Military Pay:
Pay Tables

[brads911sc]

WWEST. I had a dodge neon that needed a new evap, whole dash had to come out.

Compressor was also bad.

That bill was more than the Keuhl kit in my 911.

Its also 1/10 what I spend on my engine rebuild and fuel systen upgrade.

Its all a matter of perspective. When you live in a hot humid climate, its really not an unreasonable number.

I dont think you get that... its called logic...

Originally Posted by wwest

You don't say how much $$$

Military pay must have changed a LOT since my time.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

I dont think you get that... its called logic...

Read my post in response to Griff.

wwest has the conclusion fixed firmly in his mind. There is no amount of facts or reasoning that will allow for any other conclusion.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

Read my post in response to Griff.

wwest has the conclusion fixed firmly in his mind. There is no amount of facts or reasoning that will allow for any other conclusion.

Kuehl has presented us with lots, literally TONS, of "reasoning", but with NO actaul facts in support of his "reasoning".

Kuehl needs to prove to himself, for himself, that my solution is well grounded. The problem being is that he can't do that absent denigrating the $$$ value of his own product set. So we can expect more and more of his non-factual "reasoning".

[brads911sc]

Perhaps you should actually log in and look at all the graphs and charts Kuehl has posted here and on his site... most compare stock to every component he sells.
not sure how much more factual that you could be. Nothing is less factual than your rants... which not only usually defy logic but have often been scientifically incorrect.

Originally Posted by wwest

Kuehl has presented us with lots, literally TONS, of "reasoning", but with NO actaul facts in support of his "reasoning".

Kuehl needs to prove to himself, for himself, that my solution is well grounded. The problem being is that he can't do that absent denigrating the $$$ value of his own product set. So we can expect more and more of his non-factual "reasoning".

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by pavegeno

1. Read Keuhl's website

2. Called and talked to him

2. Bought Keuhl's stuff

3. Everything got delivered to my house exactly as he said it would

4. Mechanic installed Keuhl stuff with zero issues, missing parts, or quality defects

5. System worked exactly as advertised except I had some initial problems with condenser freezing which turned out to be improper probe placement in the evap by my mech despite the printed instructions clearly showing the right way to do it. Corrected probe placement. No problems. Even had an engine rebuild and went to turn the a/c on the Sunday after I picked the car up and it didn't work. I called Keuhl and left a message figuring I'd get a call back the next business day. He called me 10 minutes later and stayed on the line diagnosing the system and identified that they forgot to reconnect the high/low pressure cutoff. Reconnected it. System worked perfectly and saved my Sunday afternoon drive through the southern Virginia countryside.

6. System has been in 4.5 years and I have lived in NW Florida, southern Virginia, Texas and Hawaii. (military guy so I move a lot) Constant 29-35 degree vent temps. I run the variable fan about 60% of max and the temp selector about 60% of max cold. Car is my daily driver so I have 4 summers in hot places in my dark blue interior cab. Car sits in a parking lot with a sunshield in the windshield. Rear plastic window gets condensation on it becuase of the performance of the system. Wife constantly asks me to turn the fan speed down as I like it really cold. Engine temp stays below 9 o'clock regardless of OAT.

7. No freon added in the last several years.

8. Words and claims are meaningless...your customers will sell your product based on performance and customer service.

9. I could care less about fans, thermodynamics, compressors, temps, txvs, binary, trinary switches, etc. I just want my car ice cold. It is.

10. Anyone can pm me if you are interested in more info.

I had very similar results. I installed my system myself. It is very easy with the best step by step instructions I have ever seen. Every component was top quality. I drove to Savannah GA in AUGUST and the A/C was great. No it was not cheap, but I have rarely had a cheap fix that was really a FIX. My A/C system is fixed.

After many years I have not had to add one ounce of refrigerant.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

Perhaps you should actually log in and look at all the graphs and charts Kuehl has posted here and on his site... most compare stock to every component he sells.

I have absolutely NO dispute with Kuehl regarding facts, charts or graphs, etc, based on Kuehl's product, product set.

not sure how much more factual that you could be. Nothing is less factual than your rants... which not only usually defy logic but have often been scientifically incorrect.

Well let's begin here:

Barrier hoses vs not.

What actual proof do we have, anyone of us, that the non-barrier aspect, specifically, of the OEM hoses are the base cause of refrigerant loss over such a short period. What if the problem is really poor o-ring seals or fittings prone to leakage when the high side PSI exceeds the OEM design specs?

Has anyone, ANYONE, replaced ONLY the non-barrier hoses and had that, only that (NO other changes to the OEM system) solve the leakage problem?

And even so, might new modern day hoses have enough sealing/coupling improvement, independent of being of the barrier design, that the leakage issue, were it caused by high side over-pressure, is resolved?

Who would not agree that the only real method for disproving the validity of my solution is an actual test. Eliminate the possibility of the high side going over-pressure and thereby see, discover, if the 2 year leakage "cycle" sustains.

And.

How could ANYONE not agree that reducing the PEAK high side pressure, as it occurs in the pure OEM state, ~350PSI max, would reduce the leakage rate of the OEM non-barrier hoses.

Anyone?

[brads911sc]

That defies WWEST Theory.

I have had a similar experience. Have not added R134a in several seasons.

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

After many years I have not had to add one ounce of refrigerant.

[brads911sc]

There are dozens of us who have bought Keuhl kits that have not added refrigerant in many seasons. Whether its the new sanden compressor, or the hose, is really immaterial... because AC systems are systems.. and needed to be treated as such... in my case i have a stock OEM rear deck. so if fittings where the issue, that is where it would occur. It is also where the pressure would be the highest. Also not sure the Sanden orings are any different than OEM. high pressures are high pressures. it has not occurred. so that would lead me to believe that its the hose.

you attempt to isolate independent parts and then wonder why it doesn't represent a comprehensive solution that can be duplicated.. Why dont you just change the oil and not the filter. Why dont you change the wires and not the plugs, cap and rotor, why dont you change the pistons and not the rings. why dont you change the chains and not the rails. Every mechanical system on these cars requires a systematic approach. Your arguments make no sense at all and defy all logic.

Adding a couple fans and switches is not the answer to all AC woes. If you really want to prove that it is, then link up with Reid or some other idiot who thinks they are the gods of AC and prove it. It is not up to those with proven solutions to prove that yours is better. it is up to you. if you arent going to do that, then shut up already...

Originally Posted by wwest

Well let's begin here:

Barrier hoses vs not.

What actual proof do we have, anyone of us, that the non-barrier aspect, specifically, of the OEM hoses are the base cause of refrigerant loss over such a short period. What if the problem is really poor o-ring seals or fittings prone to leakage when the high side PSI exceeds the OEM design specs?

Has anyone, ANYONE, replaced ONLY the non-barrier hoses and had that, only that (NO other changes to the OEM system) solve the leakage problem?

And even so, might new modern day hoses have enough sealing/coupling improvement, independent of being of the barrier design, that the leakage issue, were it caused by high side over-pressure, is resolved?

Who would not agree that the only real method for disproving the validity of my solution is an actual test. Eliminate the possibility of the high side going over-pressure and thereby see, discover, if the 2 year leakage "cycle" sustains.

And.

How could ANYONE not agree that reducing the PEAK high side pressure, as it occurs in the pure OEM state, ~350PSI max, would reduce the leakage rate of the OEM non-barrier hoses.

Anyone?

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by wwest

Kuehl has presented us with lots, literally TONS, of "reasoning", but with NO actaul facts in support of his "reasoning".

Kuehl needs to prove to himself, for himself, that my solution is well grounded. The problem being is that he can't do that absent denigrating the $$$ value of his own product set. So we can expect more and more of his non-factual "reasoning".

Yes, Griff has given reasoning. Accompanied by ACTUAL DATA. That data is not factual in what way? Please explain how those graphs are somehow not "data", or at the very least, visual repesentations of data?

Your claim that Griff hasn't given data is FALSE. Please stop making this claim.

Griff need not prove anything to anyone. Your solution isn't really a solution to anything but poor system performance below 1700 RPM. And in fact, your solution might be an actual problem at higher RPM due to engine cooling air restrictions. Changing the focus back to Griff does not make this problem of yours disappear. Changing the burden of proof is also a nice red herring, but as any student of logic knows, red herring use is logical fallacy.

You don't want to play the logic card here - you're overmatched.