Budgeting for Failure

[Ferrino]

Am currently considering an air-cooled 911 and am having a bit of a hard time figuring out if it falls within my budget. While I can comfortably purchase something in the $20K ballpark, I would like to leave some capacity there for maintenance and failures. I read an adage somewhere that warns to discriminate between "buying" and "owning" a 911, which seems sensible yet scary.

I've figured that, despite due diligence with a thorough PPI, it's probably best to prepare for the worst and I'm assuming that is typically an engine failure. The options in this case appear to be a partial/complete rebuild or swapping to another motor. So what kind of costs are associated with these? For instance, how much could you pick up a running 3.0 SC or 3.2 Carrera engine for?

The car I'm currently looking at is a '74 with the much maligned mag-cased engine. I figured that if such an engine expired, it would be most cost effective to swap out to a 3.0 or 3.2 that maybe someone is swapping out for a 3.6. If I was to DIY the swap, how much would you expect to sourec the engine for?

Thanks for any opinions on this!

[darrin]

figure around $5k for a 3.0 or 3.2 with relatively unknown providence (ie could well need a rebuild too).

Besides valve guide issues (evidenced by high oil consumption and requiring a top end rebuild) a well cared for 3.0 or 3.2 is relatively bulletproof, as long as not overreved.

Low mileage carreras and scs seem to command a significant premium. You might want to focus your search/budget on finding a well cared for higher mileage example that has already had a top end rebuild/tranny refresh/etc. If I was interested in selling mine (which I'm not), it might be a good example of this, an '86 targa with 15x,xxx miles, a top end rebuild and clutch replacement at 8x,xxx miles, etc.

Mine's a daily driver and in my case, I've found that many of the issues I inherited at purchase stemmed from lack of use. Now that I'm putting 5k+ miles on mine per year, it's given me honda-like reliability. Food for thought.

[r-mm]

I struggled with this also. I was in the market for a 78-89, ended up with an 87, 100k miles, no rebuild, regular use, PO had it since 92. I suppose I could be in line for a clutch or top end in the coming years but my feeling was that I got a good deal, I think the car has a healthy upside or at least very little downside potential so I would not be offended at having to pay $5k for a top end, which in New England would be considered a good deal if you are not performing any of the work yourself.

[KTL]

These cars certainly aren't w/out their pitfalls. But for $20K (car with some money to spare) you can get a solid car with well-documented history that should avoid any serious failures. Just my speculative perception here, but I think you're letting the internet hype lead you to believe that the vast majority of these cars are destined for major engine failure. That's far from the truth and quite the contrary.

The later 3.0L and 3.2L engines are some of the best Porsche ever made. Even with the valve guide issues (avoided by buying someone else's repairs of it) and head stud breakage (often repaired in conjunction with top end valve guide work) these engines run for hundreds of thousands of miles. Even with multiple broken head studs these engines can continue to run just fine. I'm not condoning it. Just saying the head stud breakage isn't an instant crippler of the car.

That said, I think your look at a '74 is a bit risky given the 40 yr age and it's Mg based engine. You can do a lot better for not a lot more money by looking at SC cars. There are a lot of good, solid SC cars out there for $12K

To answer your question about running engines, a 3.0 or 3.2 can be had for $3K to $4K quite frequently.

[audi]

If I could comfortably swing $20K, I'd buy the best 911 I could for that amount - very nice SCs, 84-86 Carreras and even good driver G50s show up from time to time in that range - rather than spending less on a mag-cased 74 in order to have money set aside for possible engine failure.

They're old cars, so stuff can happen with any of them, but the old adage to "buy the best you can afford" from the get-go is sage advice.

Fear of expensive repairs kept me from 911s until a few years ago - knowing what I know now, I would have bought one much sooner.

Good luck!

[mca]

I'm going to speak strictly about the SC since I am familiar with them.

You can find a 911SC in great working order with a fully rebuilt engine for 20k or less. There are a lot of them out there. Knowing what I know now ... I would not pay more than 13k for an SC with the original motor since a rebuild will be in the 7k - 12k price range.

However, there are some things that would make me go higher than 13k for a car with an original engine: if the current engine was dry (relatively leak free), if the car had 7" Fuchs up front and either 8" or 9" Fuchs in the rear with "newer" tires, if the car had been properly lowered / corner balanced, if the paint was 8 out of 10, if the car had SSIs, if the car had a proper sport muffler, and if the sugar scoop headlights had been upgraded to H4s. These are all pricey things that really improve the car's looks and performance.

I've seen some in the 20k range with a rebuilt engine and all of the goodies mentioned above.

[sobamaflyer]

$20k sounds top end [currently] for a middie (they seem to be only just becoming accepted after having been the black sheep for years). At that price you are likely looking at a very original, well kept, very well maintained car (and documented as such). So a lot of that should significantly lessen your immediate outlay of cash.

That said..... if you purchase such a car and do end up transplanting an engine, and and and you may be taking away some of what made it [more] valuable. Also, a '74 in particular IIRC doesn't have thermal reactors which were part of the early death of so many 2.7's.

There are a lot of very nice 911s from 74-86 in your $20k. It's wise to not go in completely blind thinking you will outlay no cash after you buy your car (that's just silly ) But as others have said these puppies are remarkably robust and what you buy at that price will likely have been taken care of quite well.

Good luck, these things are addictive, you are required to post what you finally decide upon and let others gush over it.

[Ferrino]

Thanks all. The '74 I'm looking is only 2,500 miles from a very nice restoration, including a repaint, engine rebuild, new brakes, new interior etc. and that's the only reason I'm considering a 2.7. The other bonus is the smog exemption here in CA, giving more options down the road.

[Dave Colangelo]

I have not read this thread so please excuse me if I repeat something that has already been said.

Budgeting for repairs can be a complex question to answer. I guess if you have just started toying around with getting an old 911 then explaining a bit about them will help answer the question.

Many people here will say that an SC or Carrera is a 20K car. Meaning you either spend 20K on a problem free one (or as problem free as any Porsche can be) or spend 10K on the car and another 10K to get it problem free. This is more or less true, you can save money doing work yourself and just as easily waist it on an overpriced mechanic but parts do cost money and that is the reality of life. If you are looking for a car to drive often, and really get a thrill out of in terms of speed, I would opt for an SC or Carrera. If you are looking for a bit more swag with some speed and handling as well I would go for a long hood (early 911). They are all great cars and you will be happy, all be it in different ways, with any one of them.

The cars:
Im sure in your research you have read about all the issues with the various models. If you have not I would advise trolling the forums a bit and getting to know the issues with all the various models. What I will say to this, is that every 911 has its issues. The 2.7's had mag case issues, the 3.0's had a complex CIS system that can be tough to fix and the 3.2's had an early 80's computer to deal with. For what its worth the 3.0's and 3.2's are considered the most bullet proof of the 911's in my opinion.

Budget:
Assuming you use the car often, I would expect at least 1K a year in general upkeep. Oil, filters, plugs, tires, etc. will cost you. Remember these cars take almost 12 quarts of oil so a change is not cheap. Once you buy one Im sure like all of us there are some small changes you will want to make, you will most likely spend some money on a few fun things at first.

Break Downs:
The reliability of the car, IMO is more or less based on how often you use it. A car that you drive every day (as I did with all of my various P cars at some point) will have far less problems than a car that sits around and sees little use. Any one here will tell you that neglected cars always seem to be broken. If you plan to use your car as a DD, or drive it more than once a week, you most likely need not budget more than 1K a year for fixes. If you are only going to drive it on rare occasions than you may end up spending a whole lot more on fixing things. The truth is, the sky is the limit with these cars, you can get an 8K engine rebuild or an 80K engine rebuild, it all depends on what you want to do and who you want to do it. Parts are more or less readily available and some more expensive than others. If your CIS system fails the little internal parts may be expensive but if you just need fuses and break pads you wont be paying that much more than your other cars.

Buying a Car:
One thing that I often tell people with these cars is, at some point you just have to buy a car. I have seen many people turn great cars up because of small issues. The color is wrong, the AC dident work (like it ever will...), the interior color was silly blah blah blah. Little issues can always be fixed. If the fuchs are the wrong color you can always have them refinished. You will have much more fun getting a car that is 95% what you want than trying to find a car that is 100% of your dreams. Not to mention how much you will learn about the car fixing that last 5%.

Engine Swapping (in answer to your question):
Porsche has put them selves in a unique place, as the 911 has not changed much over the years it is easy to swap engines through these cars, and often done. I think they are very interesting in this respect. I would love to have an old long hood with a 3.0 however I would advise getting a stock car and trying to get it in tip top shape before putting some other engine in there.

Some other thoughts:
- The post 78's are full galvanized so you will see far less rust on them
- A 911 is always a 911 you will be happy with any one of them
- If you can, get behind the wheel of various models and see what you like best
- You can always repaint a car
- The sky is the limit when it comes to modifications and changes to these cars

If you have any questions feel free to PM, I think I covered most of what I intended to.

Regards
Dave

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by Ferrino

Thanks all. The '74 I'm looking is only 2,500 miles from a very nice restoration, including a repaint, engine rebuild, new brakes, new interior etc. and that's the only reason I'm considering a 2.7. The other bonus is the smog exemption here in CA, giving more options down the road.

I might just go for that one...

[gregwils]

The 2.7 with proper machine work to the case can be a fine, durable motor. I assume you know who did the motor and have a detailed receipt to review.

[Doug&Julie]

My experience is, if you've bought a good one (and the one you're looking at sounds good), then budget about $2k a year for misc. maintenance and repairs. Not saying you'll need $2k a year, but budget for it.

I bought a '74 from a Pelican member after he rebuilt the motor and it ran sweet and true, with little money spent on the car in my (too brief) ownership.

I also agree that the SC / 3.2 Carreras are tough to beat for overall reliability. That's why I'm buying one this weekend.

"Failures" in these cars are very, very rare, especially if you find a good one.

Good luck!

[tharbert]

Previous wisdom would have suggested you look a couple years older for a longhood (just because it's a longhood, right?) or several years newer for a 3.0/3.2. The "middies" are notorious for rust. Sounds like you are bypassing the rust issue by getting an already restored car. I've also heard here that you'll pay $20k for an older Porsche regardless of the purchase price. If you buy it for $5000, you'll be looking at $15,000 worth of fixing or if you pay for the work already done, it's, again, $20k. So you are in front of the pack here.

Good luck!

[sobamaflyer]

Sounds like that could be a great car, I'll wager you spend a whole lot more on "personalization" each year than you do on actual maintenance. If the engine was reputably rebuilt you MAY not have to touch it until you are approaching 100k miles.

[Storage Man]

Originally Posted by KTL

These cars certainly aren't w/out their pitfalls. But for $20K (car with some money to spare) you can get a solid car with well-documented history that should avoid any serious failures. Just my speculative perception here, but I think you're letting the internet hype lead you to believe that the vast majority of these cars are destined for major engine failure. That's far from the truth and quite the contrary.

The later 3.0L and 3.2L engines are some of the best Porsche ever made. Even with the valve guide issues (avoided by buying someone else's repairs of it) and head stud breakage (often repaired in conjunction with top end valve guide work) these engines run for hundreds of thousands of miles. Even with multiple broken head studs these engines can continue to run just fine. I'm not condoning it. Just saying the head stud breakage isn't an instant crippler of the car.

That said, I think your look at a '74 is a bit risky given the 40 yr age and it's Mg based engine. You can do a lot better for not a lot more money by looking at SC cars. There are a lot of good, solid SC cars out there for $12K

To answer your question about running engines, a 3.0 or 3.2 can be had for $3K to $4K quite frequently.

Ferrino,

This is a true statement by all accounts...it was for me when I was in the market for my 911 3.2.
Do not let the internet hype distort that there is quiet abit of value in these motors. We as a community look at them in the finest granularity and talk about them that way but they truly are some of the most robust cars built by Porsche.

[manbridge 74]

Rarely would I consider the "just been restored car" unless...

-I knew and trusted who did it
-pictures were available of before, during, and after resto
-engine rebuild receipts

Too many things to hide IMO

For the money you could find a mostly unrestored original with 30-60K miles or so on rebuilt engine.

[OsoMoore]

There are a lot of great and informative posts above me, so I'll stick with my personal experience.

Last spring I spent 12K and got a great deal on a 79 SC 240K miles on it. It had a rebuild 40K earlier, new suspension, new Targa top, and was already sorted out. Since then I've spent less than 1K on minor repairs. There are plenty of small projects I can work on, but nothing that keeps me from driving it to work every day.

Find a well cared-for car with recentish rebuild, get a PPI, and you can get a great car for a reasonable price.

[wayner]

You should also ascertain wether the car has been restored, or just "fixed up."

Also, keep in mind resale.

A fully restored (and priced accordingly) 74 may be a good deal at $20k compared to the cost of getting it into that state, but when it comes time to sell, people will be evaluating the same things that you are now, and may opt for one of the other directions.

If you plan to keep the car forever, the year doesn't matter so much, but for resale its mid-year status seems to.

(Having said that, when I add up my own receipts plus the ones from previous owners from the time it was originally taken off the road by them three owners and 12 years ago, my 73 has about $70k into it from various restoration, hot rodding and refurbishing work that goes beyond any kind of routine maintenance, so in the grand scheme $20k is not bad).

I have added some of those receipts to my thread (in my signature below) if you want to get some idea of costs for major items.

[manbridge 74]

To expound further.... a car can be restored well and be even better than what the factory offered. But not many people will do this on a mid-year as, for example, cutting off the rockers to deal with hidden rust is a giant pain and takes a lot of time and costs more money than car might ever be worth.

Many areas for rust to hide on these and other unit body cars that could reappear after a few years if repairs are not done correctly.

[McLovin]

You can still get an 84-86 Carrera, very nice car, under 100K miles, needing nothing, for $20K. Maybe even an 87-89.

If you buy a good car, you won't need to spend much. These are incredibly durable cars, and most parts are actually cheaper than those on most modern cars (Nissans, etc.).

I've driven 911s constantly for 20 years, and have never, ever had a major repair.

The secret is buying the right car.

My current '88, I've had since early '09. I just looked at my records. Here's every single thing I've done to it in the last 4+ years, most of which has included daily driving:

1. Right after buying it, I did a major service on it. Flush/bleed/change ALL fluids and filters, adjust valves, change plugs cap and rotor, etc. I also changed the cylinder head temp, just to be safe.

2. I've done 6 oil and filter changes.

3. Rebuilt one front caliper that I suspected was sticking (but turned out probably was fine).

4. Replaced the DME relay.

5. Replaced a cam oil line that started leaking.

6. Replaced both DME sensors - (used BMW parts, much less $$).

That's it. My most expensive thing has been by far the oil changes.

That has been fairly typical of my experiences with the 84-89 Carrera over the years.

The key is: Buy a good, solid, no stories car that has been maintained and doesn't have a million miles on it already.