Brake upgrade -perennial discussions

[targa88]

Before I start I have read some 40+ threads of past discussions on this subject.
It would appear that there are a number of proposed solutions. In my case I am starting with a stock braking system on a 1988 Targa with 16" rims. 4 DEW events later, new pads, new brake lines, bleeding etc; and fade is appearing at the end of each session.
By process of elimination, I have found a few alternatives:
a) 930/ Turbo brakes
b) Boxster upgrade
c) 928S4 brakes
I would prefer the best recommendation from the experts: "bang for the buck". Based on doing the installation myself, and for use in 10-12 track events a year.
Although, it will most likely end up as a winter project. I still have three more track events for this season, so any and all improvements would be greatly appreciated.

[dtw]

What kind of pads are you running? It may be possible to solve your fade problems by changing pad compounds and getting some air flow to your brakes. Ventilation is usually step one before replacement of the whole system.

-d

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Dave
'72 911T to '73 RSR Replica Project

[Bill Verburg]

Assuming that you want to keep the 16" with no spacers.
78-89 930 all around including rotors

Assuming that spacers in the front are ok
f 928 S4 'little reds' r w/930 rotor all around.

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Bill Verburg
My Home Page My Pelican Gallery page My Porsche Owners Gallery Page

[orbmedia]

To what extent do you think your driving technique comes into play? Did you ever think that you're not using the brakes to their proper effectiveness? I'm not saying this is your problem absolutely but you should consider it. When I learned to brake properly most of my "brake problems" went away.

Bottom line, use the brakes less on the track. I'm serious.

[targa88]

DTW/ Dave : The pads have been a progression. OEM to start - Metalmasters - Ferrodo. I was thnking of possibly Hawke ( however I have since found out that they don't make for my year) so Pagid "Orange"? - would be next.

Bill,
I definitely want to stay with the 16". No spacers currently - what size would be required? I know that I can get my hands on the 928S4 relatively easily for the front. Should I understand that they not recommended for the rear -rather the 930s; or are you making separate reference to rotors versus calipers? BTW, I remain totally impressed with your Targa. Aspirations....
Orb,
Valid point, which really depends on the familiarity with the track, along with the nature of the track, run group etc. The issue became more pronounced, when testing new set ups, at a local "short" track - which requires more braking. It is also more pronounced "OBVIOUSLY" when braking at the end of a long straightaway. I have taken different instructors out with me to check both my line and braking. Only one commented on late braking...

[ROWSC]

I have a 79 and have been working with Rich Watson at Jerry Woods, Inc. and he suggested I simply upgrade to the wider Carrara system. Granted, I am looking for street performance but am talking about a significant increase in HP as well. Air ducts are a lot cheaper than turbo calipers.

Rich

[Bill Verburg]

Obtaining the S4(front) calipers is just the start, they must be machined(you'll have to contact Steve Weiner, Doug Arnao, Chris Cervelli etal) to convert from transverse to radial mounts, the adaptors to the Carrera struts must be obtained, the flat hats for the rotor adaptor must be obtained, hard lines will be needed. Radially they will fit 16" rims as long as 930 304x32mm rotors are used. Transverse clearance will depend on the wheel, generally 3 piece 16x8 need no adapter(try to keep os above +23.3 though and below+25.1), as the width goes down and/or offset gets more positive the likelyhood of a spacer goes up, next best is the +23.3 mm 944 Fuchs in 8x16, then that wheel in 7x16, worst is the 911 wheel which needs ~10mm spacer

The back is a piece of cake and can be a DIY

Check this thread for an outline of sources for the little red rears,

http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/Forum3/HTML/012207.html

but for decent hydraulic bias you want 30/34 rears with the S4 fronts. 28/30 will give too much front bias, possibly necessatating a mechanical bias valve. Only ABS equipped cars use that much front bias.

All of the rotors should be 930 sized/sourced that means you can use oem floating 304x32 fronts or after market 304x32 non floating. In the back 299x28 930's bolt right on and use the existing parking brake.

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Bill Verburg
My Home Page My Pelican Gallery page My Porsche Owners Gallery Page

[Bill Verburg]

Just came across this link,

http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/Forum12/HTML/003806.html

For these calipers the fronts are a bolt on the rears need the work.

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Bill Verburg
My Home Page My Pelican Gallery page My Porsche Owners Gallery Page

[Jack Olsen]

I've also got a beautiful set of C4 brakes (928S4, etc) that are for sale. You'd need to sell the rotors and get 930 ones, but the calipers would allow you to have Bill Verburg's brake setup, which is pretty darn good.

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Jack Olsen
My Rennlist page • My Pelican Gallery page • My Porsche Owners Gallery page

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 08-23-2001).]

[dtw]

Targa88-

Maybe you can use the Hawk pads for the SC caliper? I KNOW those are available; I've got a few sets in my garage. Surely this has come up before.

If you are happy with your braking performance but just have fade issues, I strongly recommend some ducting before you go re-engineering your brakes. You'll want ducting anyway if you upgrade later...my $0.02...

-d

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Dave
'72 911T to '73 RSR Replica Project

[Bill Verburg]

dtw, if you are building a RSR replica you too will want the 930 brakes!

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Bill Verburg
My Home Page My Pelican Gallery page My Porsche Owners Gallery Page

[spinner]

targa88 - I have a 87 which has the same brake system as you. Unless you have a pumped up motor, you should have enough brakes. In case you haven't done so, remove the brake shields front & back (at least the fronts). Use good fluid like ATE Blue/Gold or Motul etc followed up with PFC/Hawk/Pagid pads. Finally brake less but with greater authority. If you still have fade, install cooling ducts (e.g. AJ-USA ducts) before spending much $$ on bigger brakes. Almost forgot, make sure your rotors are not due for a replacement. Have fun. I'm off to Summit Point tomorrow

[ChrisBennet]

Brake upgrades are nice but quite expensive. To do the S4 fronts you need '78-80 930 rotors which are very pricy (over $300 each) not to mention the hub and caliper adapters and machining that goes along with this setup. If you do not have a codriver at your DE events, switching to OG Racing Cool Brake ducts and Carrera rotors and calipers should solve your brake problems. The Carrera setup is bolt on and very reasonable. This worked for my heavier Carrera with 2 drivers doing DE.
The OG Cool Brake ducts use a 3" hose vs 2.5 for others and they include the hub blockoff plate that (some) others don't. As a bonus, brake ducts will make your expensive brake pads last a little longer.
Not using your hot brakes AT ALL when you come back in from the track and park in the paddock will also help.
-Chris (S4 front,930 rear love 'em)

[89911]

I run back to back in the DE's because I let my brother go in another run group. On a weekend, instead of running 7 times, my car is going out 14 times. I never had a problem with what your mentioning and the car is run HARD. Sure, bigger brakes are great, but I have never had a problem with the stocks. Try better pads, Porterfield, Hawk, or Pagid Orange. I agree with the other posts about using too much brake, it could be the source.

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8 9 9 1 1, The last of the line.