refridgerant loss

[Nick Triesch]

Why is it that there are so many laws on the books from the EPA and others that say when working on your car A/C no refrigerant must leak into the air and it must be captured in the correct equipment? I ask this because every year millions of folks at the start of summer go to AutoZone or their A/C mechanic and buy millions of cans of refrigerant and put into their cars after tons of the stuff leaks out over a years time. I read right on this site that our own cars were designed to leak over time. Does not make sense to me.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Nick Triesch

Why is it that there are so many laws on the books from the EPA and others that say when working on your car A/C no refrigerant must leak into the air and it must be captured in the correct equipment? I ask this because every year millions of folks at the start of summer go to AutoZone or their A/C mechanic and buy millions of cans of refrigerant and put into their cars after tons of the stuff leaks out over a years time. I read right on this site that our own cars were designed to leak over time. Does not make sense to me.

At least for the moment it is only the early refrigerants , R12, etc, that are, can be, detrimental to the Earth's atmosphere, even leaked in relatively small qualities.

So, while you cannot readily purchase those refrigerants you can purchase those deemed less harmful to our atmosphere.

No, our cars were NOT designed to leak over time. Apparently Porsche engineers(***) did not foresee that the system they designed was highly subject to system overpressures once the engine is shut down after a HOT day and heavy use of the A/C.

*** A goodly number of automotive A/C designs of this same era had a high pressure relief valve so apparently some of the design engineers recognized the potential for this problem.

[Bob Kontak]

R-12 and R-134 harms the environment. If your or me (is that the way to say it?) dump six ounces of R134 into the atmosphere when opening a system, we had better make a video of the infraction, send it to the EPA with our address, call them names and dare them to penalize us to get their attention.

If you are busting open ten systems a day, there is some logic to the control.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

R-12 and R-134 harms the environment. If your or me (is that the way to say it?) dump six ounces of R134 into the atmosphere when opening a system, we had better make a video of the infraction, send it to the EPA with our address, call them names and dare them to penalize us to get their attention.

If you are busting open ten systems a day, there is some logic to the control.

Things are always relative. Op was asking why refrigerants are so readily available if they are so "hazardous". R-134a can damage the environment but not, as far as we know today, nearly so much a the older refrigerants, R-12, etc. That "not nearly" explains why R-134a can be purchased at any auto parts store.

"Not nearly"..subject to change with little notice..

[kuehl]

Nick,
Many types of refrigerants reduce the protective ozone 'shell' above the earth.
When the ozone shell depletes move UV comes down (not good for the skin) and
global temps rise. You can google all of this.

There are many laws in various countries.

The 911, by the way, was not designed to leak over time. Rather its a fact that it does because there is 40 feet of old design rubber hose in it; such is why there is a discussion of the benefit of using barrier hose.


There are many sources of 'leakage to the atmosphere' when it comes to automobile air conditioning:
1) Leaky hoses, connections, compressors, and evaporators are the most common.
2) Inadvertently pushing down on the schrader valve (service valve ports on the compressor) when the system is full.
3) The vehicle gets in an accident and damages something like the front condenser.
4) The vehicle goes to the salvage yard, years ago this is more common, and the salvage yard starting taking apart the car
and they simply let the refrigerant gas escape into the air; can't do that anymore.
5) Someone who does not care about other people or the earth does something dumb, like venting off the refrigerant into the
air and knowing its dumb.

The EPA has regulations. Some are to protect you. Some you just got to wonder. And some they change their mind depending upon
the political climate. What can I say. The EPA is governed by people, and..... "people will be people will be people".

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Nick,
Many types of refrigerants reduce the protective ozone 'shell' above the earth.
When the ozone shell depletes move UV comes down (not good for the skin) and
global temps rise. You can google all of this.

There are many laws in various countries.

The 911, by the way, was not designed to leak over time. Rather its a fact that it does because there is 40 feet of old design rubber hose in it; such is why there is a discussion of the benefit of using barrier hose.

Yes, old design rubber A/C hose that doesn't seem to leak, even in the long term, in any vehicular environment but an air-cooled engine Porsche.

Must be something different about our Porsche's A/C operation other than those "old rubber hoses"......


There are many sources of 'leakage to the atmosphere' when it comes to automobile air conditioning:
1) Leaky hoses, connections, compressors, and evaporators are the most common.
2) Inadvertently pushing down on the schrader valve (service valve ports on the compressor) when the system is full.
3) The vehicle gets in an accident and damages something like the front condenser.
4) The vehicle goes to the salvage yard, years ago this is more common, and the salvage yard starting taking apart the car
and they simply let the refrigerant gas escape into the air; can't do that anymore.
5) Someone who does not care about other people or the earth does something dumb, like venting off the refrigerant into the
air and knowing its dumb.

The EPA has regulations. Some are to protect you. Some you just got to wonder. And some they change their mind depending upon
the political climate. What can I say. The EPA is governed by people, and..... "people will be people will be people".

Pressure extremes, maybe, resulting from rear lid condensor heating from residual convection and radient HEAT post engine shutdown....??

Anyone have a better explanation..???

[Nick Triesch]

My point is that it just does not really matter if every Summer millions of cans are bought because millions of cars A/C systems leak out into the air! Adding a can is very normal for many car owners. Maybe it is better for our environment if millions cars leak over a years time? Yup! That must be it!!

[billybek]

Originally Posted by Nick Triesch

My point is that it just does not really matter if every Summer millions of cans are bought because millions of cars A/C systems leak out into the air! Adding a can is very normal for many car owners. Maybe it is better for our environment if millions cars leak over a years time? Yup! That must be it!!

You are on to something here.
With refrigeration systems that don't move, there are codes in place that say that thou must not recharge until all leaks are repaired. Proper leak checking of systems, evacuation are required before recharging.

Funny thing is that this code in Canada does not apply to anything that moves.
There are laws on the book that prohibits refrigerant emissions in any case.

Those little cans of R-134a that people are dropping in to "top up" are ending up in the atmosphere due to leaky systems and people not knowing how to handle refrigerants properly. One of the problems with mobile (automotive) air conditioning is the conditions that the system must operate. All that moving and shaking going on encourage component failure and leaks.

R-12 is a CFC and is an ozone depleter. The problem with this refrigerant is simply that it was too good. Very stable compound that would exist loose in the atmosphere for a very long time (50- 75 years IIRC). It is also a global warming gas.

R-134a is simply a global warming gas but has no ozone depleting potential.

Top ups should not be permitted and the little cans of refrigerant should not be available to the public. Leaks should be located and repaired before a system is evacuated and charged.

[GH85Carrera]

I replaced my hoses with barrier hoses several years ago. No more leaks. I have not had to charge the system at all over several hot summers.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

I replaced my hoses with barrier hoses several years ago. No more leaks. I have not had to charge the system at all over several hot summers.

Or you could have added a trinary pressure sensor switch and used the extra function to power the front lip blower directly from the battery, fused, of course.

The bad news that absent the above procedure, or a binary sensor/senmsor switch as a minimum, those EXTREME pressures are still there on occassion, just more fully "contained".

There is a reason many automotive A/C systems of this same era and of this same basic design included a BOV/"fuse".

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Nick Triesch

My point is that it just does not really matter if every Summer millions of cans are bought because millions of cars A/C systems leak out into the air! Adding a can is very normal for many car owners. Maybe it is better for our environment if millions cars leak over a years time? Yup! That must be it!!

You make, bring up a damn good point.

Where are all those cans of R-134a going, being used for...?

Modern day automotive A/C systems simply do not leak at the rate these cans seem to be going off the shelf.

a.) DIY "top off" as a best guess when the system doesn't work, work well enough?

b.) Shade tree mechanic conversions to R-134a.

c.)Shade tree mechanic opening/repairing...?

d.) All of the above.

Better question, MUCH better QUESTION....

Why are conversion kits, fittings, adapters, so readily available to the aftermarket?

[kuehl]

Obviously the R134a fittings are going on R12 cars... because they leak.

The questions are:
1) How many cans are being used to convert from R12 to R134a,
2) How many cars are being used to refill cars converted to R134a,
3) Of the cans used to fill factory R134a vehicles, post 92 year cars, what is leaking

Define a 'shade tree mechanic', lol

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Obviously the R134a fittings are going on R12 cars... because they leak.

The questions are:
1) How many cans are being used to convert from R12 to R134a,

My guess would just slightly less than 100% "illegally" converted. If the adapters were not legally available that number would be more like less than 5%...

2) How many cars are being used to refill cars converted to R134a,

Enough to bring us to 100%

3) Of the cans used to fill factory R134a vehicles, post 92 year cars, what is leaking

Nothing, repairs required.

Define a 'shade tree mechanic', lol

Someone mechanically inclined but not trained or employed as such...most DIYers.

[kuehl]

Oh, "illegally" converted. Hmmm.

But, you feel the major reason R134a is sold is to convert cars that had R12 and the R12 leaked out?

What do you feel is the primary source for the R12 leak? (in context here, let's say the Porsche 911 and 930 models pre 1990).

So, with respect to the factory equipped R134a vehicles produced after 1992, that people are
buying replacement refrigerant for, you think those cars that have leaks really don't have leaks.
Are you saying that the brick and mortar stores are positioning products close in such a way
that the can of R134a is an "impulse" purchase?

[gregwils]

Originally Posted by Nick Triesch

My point is that it just does not really matter if every Summer millions of cans are bought because millions of cars A/C systems leak out into the air! Adding a can is very normal for many car owners. Maybe it is better for our environment if millions cars leak over a years time? Yup! That must be it!!

I think the main issue is there really is not a reliable short-term test to identify a very, very slow leak. Plus, no politician wants to be associated with locking down AC systems and forcing owners into expensive repairs - it can make for a very short career.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Oh, "illegally" converted. Hmmm. I did not know the adverb was important to the question.

But, you feel the major reason R134a is sold is to convert cars that had R12 and the R12 leaked out?

Truth be told I'm clueless, only guessing. as to why R-134a is moving off the shelves or even if it is in significant quanities.

What do you feel is the primary source for the R12 leak? (in context here, let's say the Porsche 911 and 930 models pre 1990).

As the EPA and SAE states, and you obliquely verify, the HUGE MASS of non-Porsche A/C systems of this era can be converted to R-134a using legacy R-12 hoses without leakage problems. Then must'n we ask ourselves what is different about our Porsche..?

But to answer your question....Over-pressurization of the components that make up our A/C systems, most likely the hoses.

So, with respect to the factory equipped R134a vehicles produced after 1992, that people are buying replacement refrigerant for, you think those cars that have leaks really don't have leaks.

Just a few moments ago I recommended the replacement of a 911 regulator as an inexpensive troubleshooting technique for battery charging problem. What might the average Joe do, in that context, if he felt the A/C wasn't performing up to snuff...?

I suspect that many of us "shade tree" mechanics would first check the sight glass for bubbles as the compressor is being cycled on and off....

Are you saying that the brick and mortar stores are positioning products close in such a way that the can of R134a is an "impulse" purchase?

Not bloody likely...but....

How many of us who lived and drove before the conversion, pre-92, remember the experience of having really COLD airflow coming from the system vents. Wasn't at about this same time that computer controlled automatic A/Cs,a and "climate control" systems, started becoming more prevalent..?

All these new systems MODERATE(***) the system airflow, as the cabin atmosphere gets closer to the temperature setpoint. How many of our generation have an expectation of cold system airflow continuously.

Can we call you a Shade Tree Mechanic for now on?

On behalf of the many of us raised on a working farm with the responsibility during the off season of maintaiining/repairing/overhauling the equipment required, Farmall, Deere, Allis Chamlers, Ford Ferguson, etc, (Damn, can't remember the haybaler {belt driven by the tractor flywheel} or the combine brand names), or in even earlier times the leather harness for the mules, I'd be honored to be referred to as a "Shade Tree" mechanic.

*** Look at how many "here" are proud of 34F vent temperatures, rate their A/C system capability accordingly. Not today, no longer. Most systems today incorporate a temperature setpoint and only go WOT with the system cooling capability with extreme temperature, human comfort excursions. HOT sunlight (radiation sensor) High external temperatures (OAT sensor). In point of fact today's A/C systems, 996/997 inclusive, seem more designed to prevent driver/passenger discomfort arising from system airflow being TOO COLD, to HIGH in velocity, and TOO narrowly focussed.

To that end both my Lexus and 996 will moderate the system parameters as the cabin atmosphere gets closer and closer to my setpoint. System airflow within only a few degrees below the setpoint, low(er) blower speeds, wider dispersion of system airflow, dash, footwell, AND windshield outflow.

Makes one wonder why anyone would want horribly discomforting COLD, 34F airflow directed mostly to the face and upper body. But take an air-cooled engine Porsche, August, Houston, BLACK, DARK interior, yesterdays windshield & window glass, no glass tinting, little to no sound(thermal) insulation...you NEED 34F airflow.

There are many "sides" to the human comfort equation...some more important than others depending on our environment of the moment.

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by wwest

Over-pressurization of the components that make up our A/C systems, most likely the hoses.

Ok, that might be a theory. So prove the theory!

Assuming a stock 911 (SC or Car):
1) What is the average high side and low side pressure when the system is not running; you walk out to the car in the morning, you have not started it up.
It's 90F outside. What are the pressures?

2) What is the average high side and low side pressure when the system is operating (engine running, compressor engaged), with either R12 or R134a, say at idle,
90F outside?

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Ok, that might be a theory. So prove the theory!

Assuming a stock 911 (SC or Car):
1) What is the average high side and low side pressure when the system is not running; you walk out to the car in the morning, you have not started it up.

Equal. Depends on OAT.

Outside is 55F, R-134a, by the book...18-28 PSI.

It's 90F outside. What are the pressures?

R-134a, by the book, 50-60 PSI.

2) What is the average high side and low side pressure when the system is operating (engine running, compressor engaged), with either R12 or R134a, say at idle,


90F outside?

What does "AVERAGE" high side or low side pressures have to do with this discussion?

I could go to the "book" to give you those answers assuming a fully functioning system.

Answer these:

Why do many systems of this era have refrigerant relief valves that "trigger" at pressures as high as 450 PSI..?

What events, system failures, were expectant that led to the incorporation of these pressure relief valves..??

What prevents, if anything, these same conditions from occurring in our Porsche's..?

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Ok, that might be a theory. So prove the theory!

Assuming a stock 911 (SC or Car):
1) What is the average high side and low side pressure when the system is not running; you walk out to the car in the morning, you have not started it up.
It's 90F outside. What are the pressures?

2) What is the average high side and low side pressure when the system is operating (engine running, compressor engaged), with either R12 or R134a, say at idle,
90F outside?

LOL. Griff, this question has been asked in several different ways, by more than one person. He is not going to answer this honestly, because he doesn't know the actual answer. And even when faced with actual data, his retort is always the same: "That hasn't been my experience". Somehow, his personal experience trumps all. ALL.

I know you have to reply to offset his spewing of bovine feces, but damn. With all his evasion, subject-changing and burden-of-proof-reversing, he is an ideal candidate for a Congressional seat.

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by wwest

What does "AVERAGE" high side or low side pressures have to do with this discussion?

Wwest. You keep saying the system get's over pressurized and that causes the leaks.
You have not presented the PP forum with any test data out of, what, 100 posts you have made about this theory you have.