refridgerant loss

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Ok, that might be a theory. So prove the theory!

Assuming a stock 911 (SC or Car):
1) What is the average high side and low side pressure when the system is not running; you walk out to the car in the morning, you have not started it up.
It's 90F outside. What are the pressures?

2) What is the average high side and low side pressure when the system is operating (engine running, compressor engaged), with either R12 or R134a, say at idle,
90F outside?

"..So prove the theory!.."

You already did that...

You said that legacy systems that included refrigerant pressure relief valves, "fuses" required the addition of a hi/lo pressure switch when converting to R-134a to prevent inadvertent, no system failure, tripping of those relief valves.

Seemingly R-12 systems have an expectation of a system failure leading to excess pressures higher than 450 PSI. What might those expectant failures be and what might be the parallel expectant failure for our Porsche's that have no pressure relief valves....?

Capillary tube/bulb not properly, fully, inserted into the evaporator core...?

Capillary tube/bulb function failure due to loss of internal charge?

TXV malajusted or drifted out of tolerance, full restrictive level at 34F, and thus prevents the evaporator core from ever declining to the 28F thermostatic switch "off" setpoint?

Continuous demand for 34F vent temperatures, evaporator continously near freezing and with TXV mostly closed. How high might high side pressures get when the compressor runs "open loop" (no pressure level feedback) with those conditions existing continuously for hour after hour..?

Close to maximum system component design specifications...???

Now turn off the ignition out in the HOT August Texas sun.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Wwest. You keep saying the system get's over pressurized and that causes the leaks.


You have not presented the PP forum with any test data out of, what, 100 posts you have made about this theory you have.

But you did that for me...

So... answer the questions or go back in your corner till recess time.

....

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Wwest. You keep saying the system get's over pressurized and that causes the leaks.
You have not presented the PP forum with any test data out of, what, 100 posts you have made about this theory you have.

So... answer the questions or go back in your corner till recess time.

Oh, but here's the deal - because there is a pressure relief valve on some cars, that's all the proof he needs. No actual data, just the mere existence of such a device "proves" his point. No need to actually SHOW that this is what indeed happens. (Oh, and BTW, happens enough to deplete the charge in two years or so, never mind the physics of the thing, which states that with less refrigerant, the less likely the high side pressure will be over the relief valves actuation pressure). Change the subject. That's his favorite tactic.

[kuehl]

Wwest,

We promote the use of our binary low high pressure switch for these reasons:
1) Certain regulations required a switch.
2) If system refrigerant levels run too low the compressor can be damaged
do to lack of sufficient refrigerant/oil flow.
3) Excessive high side pressures can blow out the compressor nose seal.

Unless you can prove to your peers that your theory of over pressurizing of the system
is caused by engine heat, meaning you can provide real data of system pressures
A) System turned off, prior to starting engine and running AC
B) System running normally
C) System turned off, after running engine and AC
Everything you continually post on all the threads is simply your own personal
theory.

The 911/930 system equalizes rather quickly when the engine is turned off; the high side drops and the low side rises. The high side bleeds over to the low side through the TEV (no matter how cold the evaporator was before hand), its just a simple fact based on the construction of the TEV. And this is true for various other types of systems (industrial, commercial, residential), all depending upon the TEV design.

So tell us, how many 911 or 930' air conditioning systems have you worked on in the past 30 years?

[kuehl]

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by kuehl

So tell us, how many 911 or 930' air conditioning systems have you worked on in the past 30 years?

Oh, just the one, but that means he is completely knowledgeable about all automotive AC systems.

[Nick Triesch]

There are a whole bunch of other factors involving our air cooled cars A/C systems. I have found out that even if you get 40 degrees at the vents or even lower temps, you still have terrible A/C in our cars. The reasons for this are not that technical, just really bad design. A tiny little car with a very hot air cooled motor in the rear plus a bunch of glass and two tiny vents in the front and two tiny one at your knees. A/C in our cars for the most part is very crude compared to most all other cars of their time period. I'm Ok with it because I love my car.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Wwest,

We promote the use of our binary low high pressure switch for these reasons:
1) Certain regulations required a switch.

Regulations often, most often, have reasons behind them that benefit society. What is you opinion for the reasons for this one..?

2) If system refrigerant levels run too low the compressor can be damaged
do to lack of sufficient refrigerant/oil flow.


3) Excessive high side pressures can blow out the compressor nose seal.

Amongst a few other component's parts, components themselves.

Unless you can prove to your peers that your theory of over pressurizing of the system is caused by engine heat, meaning you can provide real data of system pressures

My "peers" need no proving (inteligence prevails), it's the naysayer's "peers", the "ungodly" that doubt, without reason, logical reason.

Anyone really TRULY doubt that in the situation described rising convection and radient engine heat will result in pressure rises in the rear lid condensor thus the entire high side...???

Hold up your hand...

What..? No naysayer IDIOTS..?

So the question then becomes "how high" might the high side pressure rise...??

A) System turned off, prior to starting engine and running AC

What if I simply say, from memory (often faulty), and stand behind, without actual measurement, 40 PSI...both.

Will that suffice..?

B) System running normally

85F OAT, R-12, high side 150-250 PSI..

C) System turned off, after running engine and AC

Instantaneously, indeterminant, high side rises above "B" above.


Everything you continually post on all the threads is simply your own personal
theory.

Yes, personal theory based on SOLID, factual information, some provided by yours truly.

The 911/930 system equalizes rather quickly...

What is "quickly" for you..? For me it was long enough to decide that my theory had good foundation

...when the engine is turned off; the high side drops

Have you actually measured, you know for certain/sure it doesn't first, initially rise?

and the low side rises.

How soon, how many minutes, assuming the TXV is in its mostly closed state, the evaporator core is thoroughly CHILLED.

The high side bleeds over to the low side through the TEV

(no matter how cold the evaporator was before hand)

Self-serving, self-justification statment. Of course the depletion of the liquid state refrigerant will be dependent on the evaporator core temperature and thereby the opening level of the TXV. That why the TXV is used, to "meter" the flow of refrigerant.

, its just a simple fact based on the construction of the TEV.

Which, what "fact", yours or mine. Both, actually, on a "clear" day I have little doubt that you have little faith in your above "fact".

And this is true for various other types of systems (industrial, commercial, residential), all depending upon the TEV design.

[/B]How does my "fact" as to the design purpose and use of the TXV differ from yours..?

My "fact" is that the TXV is used to modulate, moderate, the flow of liquid refrigerant into the evaporator core to prevent freeze up. Furthermore it is not a Bang-Bang type servomechanisom, virtually instantly transitioning from fully open to fully closed. More like a linear function, closing slowly the closer the sensed temperature gets to the level at which evaporator freeze up would result.

So tell us, how many 911 or 930' air conditioning systems have you worked on in the past 30 years?

Factual information, knowledge, know-how, are not necessarily based on experience. Which is why the "ICE PROJECT", often referred to by yours truly, and as outdated as it is, remains beneficial to all.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

Oh, but here's the deal - because there is a pressure relief valve on some cars, that's all the proof he needs.

No actual data, just the mere existence of such a device "proves" his point.

So, in your opinion, conclusion, why is there a BOV included in most BOOSTED engines..?

No need to actually SHOW that this is what indeed happens. (Oh, and BTW, happens enough to deplete the charge in two years or so, never mind the physics of the thing, which states that with less refrigerant, the less likely the high side pressure will be over the relief valves actuation pressure). Change the subject. That's his favorite tactic.

Yes, the BOV indicates that it is undesireable for then R-12 refrigerant pressure to exceed 350-450 PSI, for whatever reason. That would mean, by default, that pressures below that measure might well be common in the normal operation of R-12 systems.

R-134a Binary pressure switches open the low side at ~28 PSI, the high side at close to 400 PSI, That's right, 400 PSI! In my meager experience it's the low side pressure sensing that most often cycles the compressor off and on.

The extra function in the Trinary pressure switch is most often used to run a condensor (& radiator) cooling fan/blower with high side pressures above 225 PSI but not below 185 PSI.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

his spewing of bovine feces.......

Not only bovine feces but cow poop, too

I still like his input. Also, keeps Griff off the golf course.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

I still like his input. Also, keeps Griff off the golf course.

The groundskeepers appreciate that, I'm sure.

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by wwest

That would mean, by default, that pressures below that measure might well be common in the normal operation of R-12 systems.

"Might". See Wwest. You dont' have any AC experience with a 911 or 930.
You are guessing. Guessing just like you have in all the 100's of posts you make here.

Originally Posted by wwest

R-134a Binary pressure switches ... the high side at close to 400 PSI. That's right, 400 PSI! In my meager experience it's the low side pressure sensing that most often cycles the compressor off and on.

"Meager" thats just about right. The 911/930 did not have any pressure switches.
And, most TEV systems don't use a low side switch to cycle the system on and off.

Originally Posted by wwest

What if I simply say, from memory (often faulty), and stand behind, without actual measurement, 40 PSI...both. Will that suffice..?

I'd say your memory is selective.
And, I'd say if you are seeing a 40 psi equalized pressure you are either totally
trying to B.S. the forum here or its 30F outside when your checking those pressures

Originally Posted by wwest

Have you actually measured, you know for certain/sure it doesn't first, initially rise?

. LOL Wwest I know the answer.
So, how many 911's and 930's have you put AC service gauges on during the past 30 some years? Wanna put your money on the table?

[kuehl]

Wwest

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

The groundskeepers appreciate that, I'm sure.

Good one!

As do countless worms that have been burned.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by kuehl

. LOL Wwest I know the answer.
So, how many 911's and 930's have you put AC service gauges on during the past 30 some years? Wanna put your money on the table?

It's gettin' real in the PP 911 tech forum.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

"Might". See Wwest. You dont' have any AC experience with a 911 or 930.

It's pretty obvious that you also don't have enough experience to out and out dispute that the high side pressures might often exceed 400PSI. If you did you would be shouting, "spouting" those "facts" from the mountaintops.

You are guessing. Guessing just like you have in all the 100's of posts you make here.


"Meager" thats just about right. The 911/930 did not have any pressure switches.

Even an idiot with only half a brain would recognize that those PSI levels were quoted as reference.

And, most TEV systems don't use a low side switch to cycle the system on and off.

To their detriment, apparently.

Try to keep your "meager experience" within the context of the thread and forum.


I'd say your memory is selective.

And, I'd say if you are seeing a 40 psi equalized pressure you are either totally
trying to B.S. the forum here or its 30F outside when your checking those pressures
Better yet, it is 30F outside and you are a B.S'r. ! lol

I didn't say, can't say, the system I tested was fully charged, only that it was operational and providing airflow below ambient.

. LOL Wwest I know the answer.
So, how many 911's and 930's have you put AC service gauges on during the past 30 some years? NONE!

Wanna put your money on the table?

Sure.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

"Might". See Wwest. You dont' have any AC experience with a 911 or 930.
You are guessing. Guessing just like you have in all the 100's of posts you make here.


"Meager" thats just about right. The 911/930 did not have any pressure switches.
And, most TEV systems don't use a low side switch to cycle the system on and off.
Try to keep your "meager experience" within the context of the thread and forum.


I'd say your memory is selective.
And, I'd say if you are seeing a 40 psi equalized pressure you are either totally
trying to B.S. the forum here or its 30F outside when your checking those pressures
Better yet, it is 30F outside and you are a B.S'r. ! lol

. LOL Wwest I know the answer.

It's pretty clear to all that your need for approval, self-justification, is such that if you truly knew the answer you would not hesitate to "lord" it over us, me. Proving that you're really not a "snake oil" salesman after so many years of being exactly that is a rather tough call.



So, how many 911's and 930's have you put AC service gauges on during the past 30 some years? Wanna put your money on the table?

Sure,

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by wwest

So, how many 911's and 930's have you (wwest)put AC service gauges on during the past 30 some years? NONE!

Double Bogey there Wwest.

And, there are no Mulligans offered here.

Your on the wrong course chap.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

Good one!

As do countless worms that have been burned.

Oooof, that's gonna leave a mark. I wonder how many drinks he's had to buy for not hitting past the lady's tee boxes.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Double Bogey there Wwest.

And, there are no Mulligans offered here.

Your on the wrong course chap.

I think the putt-putt course is down the block a little.

I have a funny OT story for you. In a foursome, out on a public course, 20 years ago. My pals were pretty lubed up by the 14th, and I hit my second shot on the par-4 into a greenside bunker. Well, I get up there and haul out my wedge, and am walking down into the bunker and stumble, dropping my club. Immediately, they are on me about grounding my club in the bunker. After I pick it up and start shaking it at them to shut the hell up, I bring the club back down to address the ball, and the head hits the lip of the bunker, and the club falls out of my hand, again. OK, by this time, we're all in tears because of how ridiculously funny it all is, and I can't see straight to hit the ball. I take a giant swing, and empty out about half the bunker. The damn ball rolls up to four inches from the cup, and I tap in for par. No, no, no, they all wail, two penalty strokes for grounding your club in the bunker. I still laugh to this day.