I want real A/C on my 87 3.2 - please share your upgraded system installs & reviews

[r-mm]

I'm a relatively new owner of a very nice stock 87 Carrera that came with the compressor and decklid condensor in a box but all other a/c components installed. Part of what attracted me to the 87 was the knowledge that its a better starting point for someone who wants functional a/c. I bought this car to replace an Acura that I use for weekly driving. I don't drive to work but I do drive all year and need to not be sweaty in the fairly brutal, humid summers we get in CT (don't laugh if you're reading this in New Orleans or Orlando... it gets hot here). I'm willing to pay to make it right but obviously want to economize where possible. Besides adding refrigerant I'll be doing the install myself.

I've read a lot of info on 911 aircon and feeling spoiled for choice. Its clear that barrier hoses and a new compressor are no-brainers for anyone wanting 'real' a/c and the convenience of using R134. Past that all the mfgrs (rennaire, retroaire etc) have a fairly elaborate menu of options.

Here's one menu (from rennaire) totalling $700
$399 Barrier Hoses
$299 Sanden 507 compressor

I also see on their site the following and am not sure if they are required or just recommended ...

$299 ProCooler receiver/dryer
$299 Hi-eff serpentine evaporator

Retroair has a "kit" for the 86-89 cars totalling $$1610 with a Sanden compressor.

Please share your opinions and experiences!

[Nickshu]

Search for member named Kuehl. Tons of info. I believe most add an additional condenser in the left rear fenderwell among other things.

[billybek]

This is a good read.
Porsche 911 Air Conditioning, Porsche 930 Air ConditioningUpgrade Updates,Improvements
The owner is also a good guy that drops in here to help people that are DYI their A/C. Even those who didn't buy their equipment from him!
Cool!

[MrBonus]

My car was converted to R134a by the previous owner and it was still anemic above mid-80s which was a major factor in him selling it. I didn't recharge it after it stopped blowing cold and I really don't think I will bother with the system unless I decide to sell the car.

[Arne2]

I like the Retroair kit, but their rear condenser won't fit cars with rear wipers. (And here in Oregon, I use the rear wiper more often than A/C.) I still haven't firmed up my parts list, but am planning on starting this soon.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by r-mm

I'm a relatively new owner of a very nice stock 87 Carrera that came with the compressor and decklid condensor in a box but all other a/c components installed. Part of what attracted me to the 87 was the knowledge that its a better starting point for someone who wants functional a/c. I bought this car to replace an Acura that I use for weekly driving. I don't drive to work but I do drive all year and need to not be sweaty in the fairly brutal, humid summers we get in CT (don't laugh if you're reading this in New Orleans or Orlando... it gets hot here). I'm willing to pay to make it right but obviously want to economize where possible. Besides adding refrigerant I'll be doing the install myself.

I've read a lot of info on 911 aircon and feeling spoiled for choice.

Its clear that barrier hoses

This issue of non-barrier hoses being the cause of long term refrigerant leak may well turn out to be an URBAN LEGEND, a legend likely originating with, and heavily promoted by a few aftermarket SNAKE-OIL salespersons.


and a new compressor are no-brainers for anyone wanting 'real' a/c

The "new Compressor" most heaviliy touted by you know who is actually, absent a drive pulley change, a downgrade in pumpling capacity. Provided you NEED to replace the compressor the recommended new one will yeild about a HP in improved pumping efficiency

and the convenience of using R134.

Most any certified A/C technician can convert the Porsche 911 factory system to R-134a for less than $200, no device/component change required.

Past that all the mfgrs (rennaire, retroaire etc) have a fairly elaborate menu of options.

Here's one menu (from rennaire) totalling $700
$399 Barrier Hoses

The hoses used by the Porsche factory are common to use throughout the industry for that time period. So, before laying out $399, ask yourself, what's different about the Porsche use..??

$299 Sanden 507 compressor

I also see on their site the following and am not sure if they are required or just recommended ...

$299 ProCooler receiver/dryer

For US, the proCooler will forever and ever be completely NON-FUNCTIONAL. The ProCooler cannot function absent EXCESS (otherwise unused) refrigerant cooling capacity downstream of the evaporator. Clearly, that does NOT apply to 911 A/C systems of this era. But yes, in the proper environment (LS400..??) a ProCooler can yeild up to 5% in system efficiency, also resulting in a slight FE gain.

$299 Hi-eff serpentine evaporator

It doesn't matter, REALLY doesn't matter, how EFFICIENT an aspect of any singular component might be. Improving the efficiency of either of the condensors will not be of help absent providing more adequate airflow CONSISTENTLY through those condensors to absorb and wick away their HEAT (above OAT) content.

I notice the one of the highly touted aftermarket front lip condensors is designed such that it BLOCKS natural airflow resulting from road speed whereas the OEM condensors are open to such flow...CRAZY.

Retroair has a "kit" for the 86-89 cars totalling $$1610 with a Sanden compressor.

Please share your opinions and experiences!

GOOD read:

Adding 3 fans to rear A/C condenser

More....

Rear A/C condenser fan relay wiring diagram

And...

Cheap air conditioning mod

Plus...

cooler carrera

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Nickshu

Search for member named Kuehl.

Tons of info.

Mostly OBSOLETE, or even FALSE.

I believe most add an additional condenser in the left rear fenderwell among other things.

It has before clear that THE major shortcoming of the Porsche factory A/C system is inadequate refrigerant condensing capacity. So, yes, the rear fenderwell condensor/fans is a good route to go....but clearly more expensive vs the obvious, inexpensive radiator fans used to more consistently provide airflow through the rear engine lid condensor.

[wrinkledpants]

Barrier hoses, Zimms condenser on driver rear wheel well, new dryer.

Ignore wwest. Until that guy proves with an IR temp probe pointed at a dash vent, at idle, in hot weather, than his setup will cool just as much as a modern setup - everything he says needs to be taken with a grain of salt. *Tons* of folks have gone the Kuehl route that live in hot weather (southern states), and then there is this one guy that lives in WA that added some fans and states his setup is comfortable is just as functional. You've been warned.

[scotricker]

sub'd ! me, too!

[wrinkledpants]

Specifically, this is what was done with my 88: Barrier hoses, Zimms Condenser, lower evap case housing, Evaporator motor, Dryer (all done at 180k miles. Total, there was about a grand in parts, and about 1700 in labor. The rest of the parts including the compressor, are original. It blows ice cold, and honestly, almost too cold. On the hwy, I rarely have it over the warmest setting on the temp control and over Level 1 for the fan speed. In the city, it still keeps the inside cold when I'm sitting in traffic.

[86 911 Targa]

Originally Posted by wrinkledpants

Barrier hoses, Zimms condenser on driver rear wheel well, new dryer.

Ignore wwest. Until that guy proves with an IR temp probe pointed at a dash vent, at idle, in hot weather, than his setup will cool just as much as a modern setup - everything he says needs to be taken with a grain of salt. *Tons* of folks have gone the Kuehl route that live in hot weather (southern states), and then there is this one guy that lives in WA that added some fans and states his setup is comfortable is just as functional. You've been warned.

Actually, an analog thermometer is more accurate than an IR temp probe
which has a tendency to measure the duct hardware along with the air.

Here's what I and other members use:

[wwest]

Originally Posted by wrinkledpants

Barrier hoses, Zimms condenser on driver rear wheel well, new dryer.

Ignore wwest.


Until that guy proves with an IR temp probe pointed at a dash vent, at idle, in hot weather, than his setup will cool just as much as a modern setup -


everything he says needs to be taken with a grain of salt.


I would agree, except the EVIDENCE related in the linked posts/threads indicate otherwise.

*Tons* of folks have gone the Kuehl route that live in hot weather (southern states),


This time I not only agree, there are no exceptions. Kuehl's products work well and are likely much more reliable than the legacy factory components.

But are they really need considering the much less expensive alternative.

and then there is this one guy that lives in WA that added some fans and states his setup is comfortable is just as functional.

"..just as functional.." No, equivalent functionality only if you STOP once you have added only Kuehl's additional fender mounted condensor/fan. IMMHO all of the other "snake oil" devices sold by Kuehl are nothing more than "niceities", nice to have but more a waste of money than actual system improvements.



You've been warned.

Since it is my firm belief that the singular major shortcoming is the lack of adequate refrigerant condensing capability I'm tempted to say that ONLY adding Kuehl's fender mounted condensor would suffice.

On the other hand information in one of the links has re-enforced my thought that engine heat rising up through the rear lid condensor might be the cause of long term refrigerant leakage rather than the "non-barrier" hose use.

In one of the linked threads the poster talks about actually measuring the engine cooling fin temperature once the engine is shut down. His measurements indictate that shortly after shutdown of an engine at normal operating temperature the engine cooling fin temperature rises continually for at least the next 5 minutes.

That supports my theory that the rising engine heat MIGHT cause, in ceratin specific instances, the rear lid condensor pressure to rise enough to temperarily "broad" the o-ring seals.

So, even if you decide to go with a fender mounted condensor/fan system to overcome the A/C shortcoming it might be wise to also install a fan, or two, to help cool the ENGINE once the engine fan has ceased doing its job.

Obvious that leaves us with an argument for only adding the rear lid condensor fans energized accordingly.

Use a TRINARY switch as recommended by Jim Sims. The binary section for compressor control/protection, and the 3rd function to run the new fans. Some have even suggested the usefullness of a TDR (Time Delay Relay) to provide "after-run" capability to help alleviate the risingh of engine heat. In my case the fans run in series, "half" speed, unless the compressor clutch is engaged in which case both have afull 12 volts applied.

I now plan to add the trinary switch to control the full speed mode of the fans along with a TDR to provide "after-run" (thanks to Jim Sims for the idea) if the 3rd pressure switch should remain close post engine shutdown.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by wrinkledpants

Specifically, this is what was done with my 88: Barrier hoses, Zimms Condenser, lower evap case housing, Evaporator motor, Dryer (all done at 180k miles. Total, there was about a grand in parts, and about 1700 in labor. The rest of the parts including the compressor, are original. It blows ice cold,

and honestly, almost too cold.

A rather substantive testimonial that you could have stopped at only installing a condensor with fan forced airflow.

On the hwy, I rarely have it over the warmest setting on the temp control and over Level 1 for the fan speed. In the city, it still keeps the inside cold when I'm sitting in traffic.

Hmmm...$2700.00 when <$400.00 would have sufficed.

[david.avrahami@]

I bought a partial ac kit from Griffith (Kuehl). google the site Griffiths supplies a range of air conditioning components for your Porsche 911,911s,911t,911 turbo, and 930, such as: Porsche air conditioning upgrades, Porsche air conditioning improvements and updates: Porsche barrier hoses and hose sets, Porsche c
My deck lid condenser, front condenser and the compressor were in good shape. ALL the the new hoses, evaporator, drier and The "new" serpentine rearward mounted Kuehl Condenser were shipped with fantastic installation instructions. and Charlie, the owner, was extremely patient in explaining any issues that came up during the installation.
It is lots of work...but the results were great! I will probably order a variable speed fan switch to complement it all...
I did my homework initially and chose GRIFFITHS ...others are probably good but the step by step installation instructions with photos will make your DIY life easier. Good luck

[wrinkledpants]

Originally Posted by wwest

Since it is my firm belief ........ I'm tempted to say that......

...... re-enforced my thought that ....... might be the cause of ......

That supports my theory that ...... MIGHT cause, in ceratin specific instances.......IMMHO all of the other "snake oil" devices sold by Kuehl are nothing more than "niceities", nice to have but more a waste of money than actual system improvements.

Yeah - I'm going to have to go ahead and ask you to prove that your "theories" all work as you state. You talk a lot, and to the uninformed, all this arm waving may appear to look intellectual, but you're not kidding most here. I've asked you this before, but you never respond. Why can't you find someone in the area with a fully upgraded system that you can test yours against? I mean, if you are so confident that your setup is just as functional as a $2k+ setup, then prove it. In the science community, you can't be an outlier and expect to be taken seriously without actual proof.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by david.avrahami@

I bought a partial ac kit from Griffith (Kuehl). google the site Griffiths supplies a range of air conditioning components for your Porsche 911,911s,911t,911 turbo, and 930, such as: Porsche air conditioning upgrades, Porsche air conditioning improvements and updates: Porsche barrier hoses and hose sets, Porsche c
My deck lid condenser, front condenser and the compressor were in good shape. ALL the the new hoses, evaporator, drier and The "new" serpentine rearward mounted Kuehl Condenser were shipped with fantastic installation instructions. and Charlie, the owner, was extremely patient in explaining any issues that came up during the installation.
It is lots of work...but the results were great! I will probably order a variable speed fan switch to complement it all...
I did my homework initially and chose GRIFFITHS ...others are probably good but the step by step installation instructions with photos will make your DIY life easier. Good luck

I did this as well. I took an additional step and added the front condenser - I was swayed by arguments that the condensing capacity of the car was poor, but I have since changed my mind on that. The fact that there were very explicit instructions in addition to good photos - seemed perfect for DIY.

As for wwest - a guy who spends so much time putting fingers to keyboard and none doing actual data collection should not be trusted as a source of any kind of expertise. And especially with respect to aircooled 911 AC systems.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by wrinkledpants

Yeah - I'm going to have to go ahead and ask you to prove that your "theories" all work as you state. You talk a lot, and to the uninformed, all this arm waving may appear to look intellectual, but you're not kidding most here. I've asked you this before, but you never respond. Why can't you find someone in the area with a fully upgraded system that you can test yours against? I mean, if you are so confident that your setup is just as functional as a $2k+ setup, then prove it. In the science community, you can't be an outlier and expect to be taken seriously without actual proof.

Proof...

Mine has proved satisfactory in high desert areas of OR, Eastern WA, and in ID, and MT climates of 100F+

Proof of competitive adequacy in HOTlanta, TX, etc, is not so easy to come by.

So my plan is to loan, for the summer, my '88 Carrera to my nephew in Olive Branch MS. Maybe that will quiet some of the naysayers...

Even I recognize that "in the area" comparison testing with another fully Kuehl equipped 911 will not be satisfactory to most naysayers.

[wrinkledpants]

The fact that you'd rather ship your car to MO, and then come here to tell us "hey my relative says it blows cold air.... PROOF," makes me both roll my eyes, and frown like someone just farted on the train. Why can't you just go to a store, buy a temp prop, and find someone local? Let the cars sit for a bit on a hot day, fire them up, and see what's what. I mean, a good AC system will cool that down.

How does that seem more difficult than sending your car all the way across the country for someone else to have for a while?!

[wwest]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

I did this as well. I took an additional step and added the front condenser - I was swayed by arguments that the condensing capacity of the car was poor,

but I have since changed my mind on that.

Changed your mind...? How so, in which direction?

The fact that there were very explicit instructions in addition to good photos - seemed perfect for DIY.

As for wwest - a guy who spends so much time putting fingers to keyboard and none doing actual data collection should not be trusted as a source of any kind of expertise. And especially with respect to aircooled 911 AC systems.

Added the front condensor AFTER installing and making use of a fender mounted condesnor/fan system?? You have OTHER problems, ask ANY of the aftermarket supplier EXPERTS.

And adding the WRONG aftermarket front lip condensor, the one that BLOCKS forward motion airflow, will yeild little improvement.

Data Collection, for the naysayers...?

My choices, as I see it.

1. Move to HOTlanta.

2. Move to Houston.

3. Heat my garage to 120F and with 98% Rh. Provide BRIGHT simulated sunlight. Buy a dyno. Buy a big enough FAN to provide wind tunnel-like road speed airflow.

Suggestions otherwise?

[wrinkledpants]

What city are you in? I'll find someone in your city, I'll buy and ship you a temperature prob, and you guys can go and put your cars in the sun for a bit, wait till they're nice and warm, start them, and start taking readings. Why are you so afraid to so this?