I want real A/C on my 87 3.2 - please share your upgraded system installs & reviews

[kuehl]

Rmm,

Barrier hoses and new o-rings will eliminate most refrigerant leaks.
A new drier is SOP.
Adding a low/high pressure switch will help protect the system.
The 86+ evaporators are prone to leakage, might as well upgrade Kuehl Serpentine
You model has larger side vents, adding a Kuehl Center Vent will help move more air.
I would stick with the Denso on a 84+ car.

Depending upon your climate and needs you may need to explore other upgrades
Fender Condensers and Kuehl Front Condenser.

There are several good threads on AC Upgrades, try some of these:
for example:
A/C Upgrade Project starts tomorrow!

Mr. Ice Project

Customer Comments

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Rmm,

Barrier hoses and new o-rings will eliminate most refrigerant leaks.

So might a "fuse", "circuit breaker" to prevent system high side pressures from rising to far above design specifications. Or maybe even a trinary pressure switch along with a TDR that allows several minutes of after-run time for the front lip blower

A new drier is SOP.

Spoken like a TRUE snake-oil salesman. None of the 3 or so certified A/C technicians I have worked with on R134a conversions would agree.

Adding a low/high pressure switch will help protect the system.

Going a step beyond and adding a trinary pressure switch would be an even wiser investment..see "fuse" paragraph above.

The 86+ evaporators are prone to leakage, might as well upgrade

Says who, other than this forums LEAD snake oil salesman. Don't rely on me, do a search, count the number of evaporator leakage posts you find.

Kuehl Serpentine

You model has larger side vents, adding a Kuehl Center Vent will help move more air.

Sure, adding additional restrictions to the ease of airflow will ALWAYS result in more air movement.

I would stick with the Denso on a 84+ car.

Depending upon your climate and needs you may need to explore other upgrades

If you're going to buy ANY of Kuehl's snake oil products then I suggest you start with the fender mounted condensor/fan as the major shortcoming of the factory Porsche A/C system is the lack of adequate refrigerant condensation capability when operating with consistently low engine RPM, stop and go rush hour traffic. Snake oil...why? You do not really need more condensor capacity, you only need to raise the effectiveness of the condensors you already have.

Fender Condensers and

Please take note that buying Kuehl's front lip condensor "upgrade"will more likely than otherwise result in LESS system cooling capacity. It's design is such that it actuallly BLOCKS/RESTRICTS the natural airflow from forward motion, road speed vs the OEM version.


Kuehl Front Condenser.

There are several good threads on AC Upgrades, try some of these:
for example:
A/C Upgrade Project starts tomorrow!

Mr. Ice Project

Customer Comments

I will gladly and willingly testify that Kuehl's company makes good and reliable aftermarket A/C products that can and do substantially improve upon the factory A/C system...

But...

Kuehl is fully tied up in marketing all the expensive little add-on FIRST, fully aware that if he first goes for the "goal" he will end up with a lot less of your cash in his pockets.

So if you are wishing to improve the cooling capability of your Porsche A/C using reputable and reliable products then FIRST.

Buy and install Kuehl's fender mounted condensor/fan combination upgrade. And then after a summer's use if you feel you need one of two of the add-ons then so be it.

If, on the other hand you are into DIY, or do not have the deep pockets required of Kuehl, then consider adding additional cooling fans for the engine lid mounted condensor.

[wrinkledpants]

West- why are you afraid to compare your setup with a full kit?

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by wwest

Please take note that buying Kuehl's front lip condensor "upgrade"will more likely than otherwise result in LESS system cooling capacity. It's design is such that it actuallly BLOCKS/RESTRICTthe natural airflow from forward motion, road speed.

Where is your airflow test data for this?

[wwest]

Originally Posted by wrinkledpants

West- why are you afraid to compare your setup with a full kit?

It is my FIRM opinion that Kuehl's FULL KIT consists mostly of snake oil, items that do not contribute enough additional cooling capability to warrant the cost.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

Where is your airflow test data for this?

You're kidding me, right..? Just look at the OEM fin structure vs the Kuehl front lip condensor fin structure.

[wwest]

[Ronnie's.930]

I ♥ the a/c threads !!!! Now where's that guy selling/not selling his be-all-end-all, super badass, freeze yer balls off, everything else on the market is Fred Flintstone technology, micro channel condensers?!

[billybek]

Just a reminder that the OP wanted people to share their upgraded systems and the results of the upgrades with him.
If you haven't upgraded your system, I guess you don't have much to share here.
Oh and by the way, if you don't change out your receiver/filter drier you are begging for oil contamination on your new system and other contaminants that may be lingering after removing the R12 and mineral oil based lubricant. Pretty cheap $80 insurance that your system will run clean and dry.


I pulled this out of one of the upgrade threads. This gentleman had performed a full on Kuel upgrade to his car. I believe that the original poster is more interested in the results not opinion. That is just my opinion though!

Quote:
Last Summer I drove my 85 911 to Savannah GA in AUGUST. On one day-tour on the way to lunch my wife actually asked me to turn the temp up. When I drove to Roebling Road for the DE I knew it was going to be a brutal hot day. I had the AC cranked up to max to soak up as much cool as possible on the trip from Savannah to Roebling Road. I got there in the morning and the roof of the car on the outside was covered in moisture. My 911 looked like a big white beer can that just came out of the fridge. It was covered in condensation. My glasses instantly fogged up when I stepped out of the car.

The AC was tested to the max on my trip home to Oklahoma. We were driving due west for many hours in the afternoon and it was 105 outside. The sun was shining into our faces and we could feel the heat of the sun on our chest. The AC kept us reasonably comfortable.

I have the system from Griffiths. 4 total condensers and the new evaporator, and all new hoses running R-12.
__________________
Glen
36 Year member of the Porsche Club of America
1985 911 Carrera with very cold A/C
1986 El Camino with Fuel Injected 350 Crate Engine
2008 Infiniti G35x (wifes car)

[kuehl]

Griffiths Kuehl Performance Review

[quincydog]

Exactly a year ago I was also in the market for an a/c system upgrade to my stock 1987 Targa. I too did all the research with the various aftermarket a/c vendors and I decided to ride the Kuehl horse. I can honestly say that the great customer service support alone was worth it. But the system speaks for its self - super cool temps on the hottest summer days.

Originally I was going to have my mechanic do the complete install but after reading through the very detailed installation guide, I decided to tackle the project myself. Kuehl gave me several options on which components to upgrade but I got a case of "while you are in there" and went for the major upgrade (every a/c part except the rear deck lid condenser and the compressor) including the duel-Kuehl fender mount condensers. I am by no means a mechanic, but I was able to tackle this project (along with a few calls to Kuehl to walk me over some hurdles) and it was very self rewarding. After the system was put back together, I had it professionally charged and began enjoying the ice cold a/c. My mechanic was shocked that the vent temps were able to get so low on a car this old.

So a year later, do I have any regrets? Not at all. Was this a bit more than I what I budgeted? Yes, but it's a Porsche, right?. If you plan on keeping your car for a long time and want to enjoy it during the dog days of summer, go for it and do the work yourself. I see you mentioned that you reside in CT, so if you go with the Kuehl system, I would recommend the drive over to his shop in North Jersey to pick up the parts (that's what I did).

You can send me a message offline to discuss in more detail and I can send you some pics if you like. I don't know who this wwest character is, but if someone has to be so in your face and have a pompous disposition, I wouldn't pay too much attention to him.

[wrinkledpants]

Originally Posted by wwest

It is my FIRM opinion that Kuehl's FULL KIT consists mostly of snake oil, items that do not contribute enough additional cooling capability to warrant the cost.

We're not looking for opinions. We're looking for a comparison. Would it be that hard to compare? If your setup works as well as you say it does, then I'll happily strip out my Zimms condenser and add some fans. I just need to know it works, and your opinion, with all due respect, is pretty worthless given how crazy you get in these posts.

[kuehl]

Wwest does make some logical statements:
From this thread:
AC install

Originally Posted by wwest ? View Post

I have never cast negative aspirsions about Kuehl's technical expertise, certainty not in his product area.

Kuehl's product set, and air cooled 911 A/C system knowledge, is now more historic than otherwise.

I'm of the opinion that the non-barrier hoses were probably the problem...

I think the system (Kuehl) is probably the best performing system out there, and the price reflects that.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by billybek

Just a reminder that the OP wanted people to share their upgraded systems and the results of the upgrades with him.
If you haven't upgraded your system, I guess you don't have much to share here.
Oh and by the way, if you don't change out your receiver/filter drier you are begging for oil contamination on your new system and other contaminants that may be lingering after removing the R12 and mineral oil based lubricant. Pretty cheap $80 insurance that your system will run clean and dry.


I pulled this out of one of the upgrade threads. This gentleman had performed a full on Kuel upgrade to his car. I believe that the original poster is more interested in the results not opinion. That is just my opinion though!

Quote:
Last Summer I drove my 85 911 to Savannah GA in AUGUST. On one day-tour on the way to lunch my wife actually asked me to turn the temp up. When I drove to Roebling Road for the DE I knew it was going to be a brutal hot day. I had the AC cranked up to max to soak up as much cool as possible on the trip from Savannah to Roebling Road.

I got there in the morning and the roof of the car on the outside was covered in moisture. My 911 looked like a big white beer can that just came out of the fridge. It was covered in condensation. My glasses instantly fogged up when I stepped out of the car.

The AC was tested to the max on my trip home to Oklahoma. We were driving due west for many hours in the afternoon and it was 105 outside. The sun was shining into our faces and we could feel the heat of the sun on our chest. The AC kept us reasonably comfortable.

I have the system from Griffiths. 4 total condensers and the new evaporator, and all new hoses running R-12.
__________________
Glen
36 Year member of the Porsche Club of America
1985 911 Carrera with very cold A/C
1986 El Camino with Fuel Injected 350 Crate Engine
2008 Infiniti G35x (wifes car)

"..Last summer..."

Off-thread, sorta...

Glen's post brought something to mind that has puzzled me for many years. When I was growing up in the south, NE Arkansas, a window fan is the most I can remember for "air conditioning". Chopping cotton in the HEAT. When we came to an area of sandy soil we would work our BARE feet (shoes were only for school) down into the sand for the coolness and stretch out with the hoe as far as we could reach before having to lift our feet out of the "cool". On a HOT day burrowing down into the cotton in the trailer to get out of the HEAT and take a quick after DINNER (now lunch) nap.

These days when I go "home" everyone has home A/C turned to to the CHILL factor and same with the car. Only exposure to the real world is during the walk from house to car or reverse.

I suppose I could get used to that eventually but in the meantime...

But might "this" ( above) be why I have such an apparently gross misunderstanding of the adequacy of the Porsche A/C as used in the Southland...?

Here in the North we settle for moderacy both inside and outside...? No need for supercool, CHILLING, A/C capability..?

So yes, if so then the Porsche factory A/C will always be deemed inadequate for southerners.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by wwest

You're kidding me, right..? Just look at the OEM fin structure vs the Kuehl front lip condensor fin structure.

No, I'm not kidding. You make a claim, and you prove it with test data. This is a technical forum, after all. Science is a funny thing - you don't get to dream something up then say "this is the way things are" - you have to support your idea with actual test data. Even "observed facts" lead to wrong conclusions sometimes. Like your "observed fact" of airflow. Like the "observed fact" of a geocentric universe. Exactly like that, in fact.

Your "observed fact" of pressure rise - it would be easy to hook up your test equipment and make a YouTube video. I frankly am having difficulty believing a 500psi high-side - I want to see it with my own eyes.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by wrinkledpants

We're not looking for opinions. We're looking for a comparison. Would it be that hard to compare? If your setup works as well as you say it does, then I'll happily strip out my Zimms condenser and add some fans. I just need to know it works, and your opinion, with all due respect, is pretty worthless given how crazy you get in these posts.

If you already have the fender condensor/fan system installed then I would NEVER recommend a needless de-install. On the other hand I have located a few posts wherein the owner went ahead and added the rear deck lid fans, some for the after-run engine cool down effect, and some for the additional cooling.

"...need to know it works..."

If you have a need, requirement, for the level of A/C cooling capability reflected upon by Glenn in post #48 then no, the rear lid fans will not yeild adequate cooling and you will need to go all-out with Kuehl, open your checkbook WIDE.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

No, I'm not kidding. You make a claim, and you prove it with test data. This is a technical forum, after all.

Science is a funny thing - you don't get to dream something up then say "this is the way things are"

Dream something up...?? A vertical shield is often used to block, redirect, unwanted airflow.

- you have to support your idea with actual test data.

Yes, provided it were an ORIGINAL idea, which this is NOT.

Even "observed facts" lead to wrong conclusions sometimes.

Quite obviously, point taken.

Like your "observed fact" of airflow.

Are you actually willing to stand up and dispute my (our) observed fact...?

Like the "observed fact" of a geocentric universe. Exactly like that, in fact.

Your "observed fact" of pressure rise - it would be easy to hook up your test equipment and make a YouTube video. I frankly am having difficulty believing a 500psi high-side -

I want to see it with my own eyes.

Point taken, fully understood, next time YOU'RE invited.

Science says that water will freeze if it's temperature is reduced to/below 32F...

Do you need test data or does your own personal knowledge and/or experience level indicate the truth of that science.

[wwest]

Directly from the horse's mouth, as it were.

Read the last paragraph...

The Mr. Ice Project, Porsche 911 Air Conditioning Compressor Upgrade

[wrinkledpants]

Originally Posted by wwest

If you have a need, requirement, for the level of A/C cooling capability reflected upon by Glenn in post #48 then no, the rear lid fans will not yeild adequate cooling and you will need to go all-out with Kuehl, open your checkbook WIDE.

Then why can't you just demonstrate the capability of your setup?! I mean, for the love of god - what is the damn holdup for you not giving any data on your setup, other than "I'll ship my car to MO for my nephew to drive, and I'll show you guys how well it works."

But a damn thermometer in your dash vent when it's hot outside, at idle, and post the results. How ****ing hard can that be?

Do you know who respects someone that has a whole bunch of theories but won't prove them, but will happily rail against more established ideas? Nobody. Nobody respects people like that in the science world, engineering world, and nobody should listen to you when they're considering spending their own money because you're completely unproven. Nobody gives a ***** that it works for you, because who knows. Maybe you're comfort level also involves running across hot coals and boxing with a hippo.

If you don't know how to setup a simple experiment to test an idea and analyze results, the how in the hell are we supposed to believe *any* of your ideas?

Either post up some numbers, or stop talking.

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by wwest

Directly from the horse's mouth, as it were.

Read the last paragraph...

The Mr. Ice Project, Porsche 911 Air Conditioning Compressor Upgrade

Wwest,

Make it easier for the reader:

"(2) Compressor life is also affected by temperatures. When high side pressures rise the temperature increases correspondingly. Should the high side pressures get too high the switch will cut off the power to the clutch as well. In addition to protecting your compressor investment there is another side to the "high" side pressure issue. AC systems can release (leak) refrigerant when pressures get too high (such as found with pressure release ports) so the EPA requires that when you convert to R134a with systems that have high pressure release ports you will need to install a cut out switch. In either case the switch is a very smart idea if you want to extend compressor life and these switches are typically found on most modern a/c systems. "

So Wwest, what obscure point are you trying to fabricate from the statement?

Here, I'll make it easier for you to play around with concise english:

"AC systems can release (leak) refrigerant when pressures get too high".
The adverb 'too': to an excessive extent or degree; beyond what is desirable.
In the context of the statement, such as when a preferred-normally operating R134a system in a 911 would be at 80Fambient 202psi up through 100F ambient 276 psi,
and most systems can operate up to 350 psi without leaks, and for some reason the system gets 350 psi plus, the high side cut off switch turns off the compressor,
or in cases where the system had a "pressure relief valve" (as found on some early driers, however the EPA does not want those rascal's venting out).

Now, on the other hand if Wwest is trying to elude to his concept which can be found in other posts he has made, where he thinks the loss of refrigerant is somehow
magically caused when the compressor is off and the engine is hot, and we are still waiting on his data showing a video of his gauges rising up to the heavens with and without his unique fans running over the engine deck lid?