3.6 A/C Upgrade

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by wwest

.........the rears (KYB IIRC) from tye local VW dealer.
....

OK - so if you were 35 and all into the Porsche thing in a big way, and you had more loose change than sense, you may have gone Koni adjustable (with coil overs even).

To each their own. Thousands have bought the Koni's that can't utilize the performance delta over the KYB's.

However, the kuehl kit (whatever the scale of purchase) is better built than adequate and consequently will perform over the long haul without issue- and EVERY person that buys kuehl stuff gets to use every bit of the increased performance it delivers over that long haul.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

Wwest. Rennaire doesn't make a fender unit. You senile? I've told you this more than once. Wake up. Have a cup of coffee.

Thanks, about halfway through a glass of iced coffee...

Not yet senile, I hope, just not paying close enough attention to matters that make no never-mind anyway..

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930

I see your mower and raise you a bunny with a pancake on its head!

LOL

Don't be dissin' a Deere.

I will cut you.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by wwest

just not paying close enough attention to matters that make no never-mind anyway..

Be nice. You are doing better today.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

OK - so if you were 35 and all into the Porsche thing in a big way, and you had more loose change than sense, you may have gone Koni adjustable (with coil overs even).

To each their own. Thousands have bought the Koni's that can't utilize the performance delta over the KYB's.

However, the kuehl kit (whatever the scale of purchase) is better built than adequate and consequently will perform over the long haul without issue- and EVERY person that buys kuehl stuff gets to use every bit of the increased performance it delivers over that long haul.

"..gets to use every bit of increased performance.."

Does Kuehl have ANY product that yeilds increased performance other than the fender condenser/fan assembly..?

Facts, NO speculation or guesswork.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

You also like well built stuff.

You have not experienced a true statistical mass of "adequate" stuff failing because you would rather pay more for quality.

You drove close to three times more than you should have

That was the result of my previous/current experiences, or just luck, with a '91, 3 92's, all well over 150,000 miles and NO timing belt breakage.

with no issues regarding your Lexus timing belt - even if it broke.

That's not gonna happen in a Cavalier, right? 95 Lexus was at least five times the cost of a cheap Chevy (hold that thought)

First, I have NEVER owned a Chevy..Ford was always my choice up until '91. The '95 was purchased used at 30,000 miles.

So how does a kuehl evaporator - a very sturdy high performance unit for x (twice?) dollars more - offer less value than a not so sturdy one that works fine, given your "stuff" buying history?

I have no evidence, nor, I suspect, do you, that the OEM or "other" one is less sturdy than Kuehl's.

You can't know that it offers less value.

I haven't argued that it offers less value, just that the additional performance, if any, clearly doesn't justify the horribly inflated price.

Any Lexus parts I buy often come from the Toyota dealer.

You may also be looking at discretionary spending differently today than in 1995. Jihad aside, adequate and functional, but not overbuilt may be just fine for your needs.

"..discretionary spending.." Yes, as the years go by we gain more and more knowledge and experience.

[brads911sc]

WWEST. I think that in isolation one could argue that all of these things are marginal improvements.. even the fender unit with fan... but when all summed together and its 30-40% its enough to make a significant difference in 95 degree 80% humidity weather. If you have a 15-20 degree drop in vents temps, 30% more air, and stable engine temps that is going to be meaningful in a heat soaked triple black targa in houston. Would you agree? I think that if you are going to do one component at a time, then of course a fender unit of your choice will give you the biggest bang for your buck. The issue here is that all of these aftermarket suppliers keep all of the stock components. And if they are all 30 years old, and you dont want to open it up 5x, and you are unsure of their condition its worth just doing. Nothing worse than spending a saturday installing a ZIMS, pulling a vacuum, charging, just to figure out that its better but not quite good enough. Ask me how I know. I added my components one or two at a time. If i had to do it over again, i would have went all in on day 1. It would have saved me at least $500 in trial and error expenses.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Mr West.

Thank you for addressing the questions with your opinions.
Your opinions are naturally predicated upon your experiences,
your needs and your desires.

As is the case with EVERYONE....

When it comes to AC cooling "performance gains", in most of these threads, the member(s) asking the question(s) are in need of significant improvements as compared to stock systems;

Pure speculation, you have NO way of discerning that matter. A single fender condenser/fan assembly powered by a trinary pressure switch might well satisfy the majority of owners.

they are not driving their 911/930 in summer temperatures that average below 85F,

Boy, am I feeling discriminated against, along with most owners north of the "snow" line.

on the contrary they are in the 90's and 100's. It is a known fact that the stock system using R12 cannot provide the cooling comfort they wish for, because of various reasons:

condenser capacity, volume of air, distribution of air, etc.

In "your" opinion a 10% improvement in an engine oil cooler is acceptable
provided it is affordable. Granted. The rules of procurement are:
1) A product that meets the needs: fit, form, function and reliability.
2) A product that is available when you need it.
3) A product that is at a "just" price; this later point you seem to contest through out your thread posts.

Ok, you have a nit pick with pricing.

$600.00 vs $300.00 for roughly equal product performance does not a "NIT" make..!!

That is your opinion.

Does anyone, even YOU, differ in that opinion...??

So, back to the example of the oil cooler proven to provide a 10% lower return temperature as compared to stock and competitors. Who, other than yourself
would want this product? Naturally it is the owner of a car whom is need of that 10% gain because they actually need it. Is it affordable to them? In their opinion it might be.
In your opinion for yourself it is not, probably because you do not need it.

You are TOTALLY wrong on that point. If my '88 truly NEEDED improved engine oil cooling AND I knew for certain/sure that ONLY one specific product offered that improvement I would likely pay 2X, or more, rather than buy an otherwise equivalent product.

However to tell or attempt to convince a reader on the forum that it is overpriced
or "snake oil" in your terms,

To respond we need to return to the "mainline", the Kuehl "improved" evaporator. You have not yet acknowledged in any way the subject of your use of water to test the competitive performance.

and then go on to offer alternative suggestions that have not worked, could not work, or have never been proven to work? Well, that is not sound advice. Some people enjoy finding alternative solutions (innovations). Some people enjoy bolting on a turn-key solution. And others don't have the time or desire and let others do the work. That is the nature of life. However you seem to wish that every reader in this forum must follow your path, your suggestions or travel down your road. Well, it seems that most do not wish to. That is their choice.

The cost of a product is usually relative to the factors of production: capital investment, R&D, and volume (supply and demand). One could easily argue that an add on board for a computer priced at $3500 is overpriced. One could also imply that a company in the computer business that is advertising products on their website and noting Call For Price sounds like a hypocritical Snake Oil company.

A reader posts that in their opinion that they 'predict' an outcome. And you respond
"Sounds like a speculative prediction to me...". Well, it reads to me that either you are speculating or being hypocritical.

A reader posts that in their opinion 10% is "close enough". And you respond
with an opinion to speculate with coefficient tables, however on the other hand you always demand test methods and data, yet you yourself have not presented the same; you want others to do your work.... why is that?

Your opinions/arguments, examples such as "the case at hand we're talking 24,000 BTU's of cooling capacity vs. 26,400 BTU's" or "uncertainty as to whether even the hurricane blower can "squeeze" that much cooled airflow through the flow restrictor, restriction." , appears to me like speculation, you have not proved anything to the contrary.

A statement like: "a 400 HP engine to a race if the rules dictate that you must limit to 300 HP using an air flow restriction plate." , does not make logical sense. If you had a 300 hp engine with a restrictor plate and you upped it to 400 hp, you still have more air moving through the plate. I experienced with is my supercharger this year, as well as others with their turbo's.

All of your rants to me, my products, my company, as well as other members of the Pelican community, seem to imply you do have a personal jihad.
Your jihad reduces your creditability in this forum.

...

[wwest]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

WWEST. I think that in isolation one could argue that all of these things are marginal improvements..

even the fender unit with fan..

Sorry, but on that final point I must strongly disagree. IMMHO the MAJOR shortcoming of our Porsche's factory A/C is lack of adequate refrigerant condensing capability except "at speed".

So on a "scale" of system improvement the fender condenser/fan asembly might well "weigh" in at over 80%, with an additional 10-15% going to window tinting.

but when all summed together and its 30-40% its enough to make a significant difference in 95 degree 80% humidity weather. If you have a 15-20 degree drop in vents temps, 30% more air, and stable engine temps that is going to be meaningful in a heat soaked triple black targa in houston.

Would you agree?

Sorry, but I don't comprehend the above enough to say...

I think that if you are going to do one component at a time, then of course a fender unit of your choice will give you the biggest bang for your buck. The issue here is that all of these aftermarket suppliers keep all of the stock components. And if they are all 30 years old, and you dont want to open it up 5x, and you are unsure of their condition its worth just doing.

Nothing worse than spending a saturday installing a ZIMS, pulling a vacuum, charging, just to figure out that its better but not quite good enough.

"..Nothing worse.." Not for a TRUE DIY'er. Plus if you have done a tad of research you will already have a good idea of whether or not it will work.

Ask me how I know. I added my components one or two at a time.

If i had to do it over again, i would have went all in on day 1.

Sure, HINDSIGHT is always 20/20...

But you started out EXACTLY the way most DIY'er would.

It would have saved me at least $500 in trial and error expenses.

But you would have missed the enjoyment of the DIY learning experience.

[brads911sc]

On the DIY point we agree. And the fender unit may well represent 80%. I wouldnt know. But if you are worried about the price... Opening it up 5x doesn't help.. what you dont seem to understand is that I have spent 50k on my 20k porsche. and i buy high quality 100% of the time... because i love to wrench and i want a novice to mistake it for stock... and 100% of the labor is DIY. id say its a sleeper for anyone not intimately knowlegable... so i may have wasted a few bucks by WWEST standards... but i do it for the project and time alone in my garage. I suspect there are many out there like me. This for me isnt about whether every component is "worth it". Im sure many would say that I wasted 6k on PMO ITB's and tuning too... on the other hand cold AC when its 95 is worth something. and i rather spend 4k, then park my car all summer. right? if its too much $$$ who cares. its a hobby. 6k on a new leather interior is too much too...

Quote de wwest

But you would have missed the enjoyment of the DIY learning experience.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

So, back to the "main line".....

However to tell or attempt to convince a reader on the forum that it is overpriced
or "snake oil" in your terms,

Not just "my" terms, if you wished to express a bit of truthfulness you would correct some of you obviously missleading "Snake Oil" marketing statements/positions.

and then go on to offer alternative suggestions that have not worked,

What, which, suggestions have not worked...Have you tried a Google search for various wording such as "Porsche 911 rear lid condenser fan". I even posted a few images of same. Plus which Griffiths once sold a rear lid condenser/fan assembly for the 930 series. Now it's only offered "..W/O fan..while the fan is still available from another party..WHY..??

On another post your stated that Griffiths had experimented with fans to force more cooling airflow through the rear lid codenser. Why not post the results so as to help clarify the issue..??

could not work,

Which,..PLEASE....

or have never been proven to work?

Maybe so, but what "sound" logic indicates that a "proof" test trial would not be successful...??

Well, that is not sound advice.

Since when..?

Some people enjoy finding alternative solutions (innovations).

Put my name down for that one.

Some people enjoy bolting on a turn-key solution.

Agree, but how many of those "here"..?

And others don't have the time or desire and let others do the work.

That is the nature of life.

However you seem to wish that every reader in this forum must follow your path,

Not at all, I fully agree with your above "grouping".

your suggestions or travel down your road. Well, it seems that most do not wish to. That is their choice.

"..most.." There you go again, speculating, PURELY.

The cost of a product is usually relative to the factors of production: capital investment, R&D, and volume (supply and demand).

Or an EXTREME ROI for the end user customer..

One could easily argue that an add on board for a computer priced at $3500 is overpriced.

$35,000.00 for a 2 board set....PCI add-in board. Unless you have Millions of lines of software code you wish to preserve, continue in production, 'way overpriced.

One could also imply that a company in the computer business that is advertising products on their website and noting Call For Price sounds like a hypocritical Snake Oil company.

A reader posts that in their opinion that they 'predict' an outcome. And you respond
"Sounds like a speculative prediction to me...".

So, just how do you classify a "prediction"..?

Well, it reads to me that either you are speculating or being hypocritical.

Reminds me of the nightly new weatherperson...

A reader posts that in their opinion 10% is "close enough". And you respond
with an opinion to speculate with coefficient tables,

I find it rather hard to "speculate" regarding published tables/charts.

however on the other hand you always demand test methods and data,

Only of YOU, mostly since your conclusions from your test methods are so often suspect.

yet you yourself have not presented the same; you want others to do your work.... why is that?

For which claims have I not provided supporting data, in one case withn your help.

Your opinions/arguments, examples such as "the case at hand we're talking 24,000 BTU's of cooling capacity vs. 26,400 BTU's"

If that is speculation it is derived from your posts directly.

or

"uncertainty as to whether even the hurricane blower can "squeeze" that much cooled airflow through the flow restrictor, restriction." , appears to me like speculation, you have not proved anything to the contrary.

What does the word "uncertainy" mean to you...other than an expression of doubt....??

A statement like: "a 400 HP engine to a race if the rules dictate that you must limit to 300 HP using an air flow restriction plate." , does not make logical sense. If you had a 300 hp engine with a restrictor plate and you upped it to 400 hp, you still have more air moving through the plate. I experienced with is my supercharger this year, as well as others with their turbo's.

In the race venue a restrictor plate is used to LIMIT "more air"...a 400 HP engine would not be able to "breath" enough airflow to exceed 300 HP.

All of your rants to me, my products, my company, as well as other members of the Pelican community, seem to imply you do have a personal jihad.
Your jihad reduces your creditability in this forum.

No, it is simply my desire to educate the few that are interested about how to get adequate A/C performance without spending more than pocket change.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by wwest

No, it is simply my desire to educate the few that are interested about how to get adequate A/C performance without spending more than pocket change.

I am seeing Modine, Behr, Rennaire and kuehl's evaporators for sale.

I can get the Modine for $180 from *********. Behr is just short of $500 - new on Ebay, Rennaire for $300 and kuehl for $599. Several other places sell kuehl evap kits - plus or minus a few bucks.

kuehl has well articulate explanations and some kit to help with install. No other sites have this save those selling kuehl kits and this is limited to the extra goodies.

Here is the Modine:


Here is the Behr:


Here is the Rennaire:


kuehl's from Griffiths tech:



Kuehl's from other suppliers (e.g., Zims)



If we scratch the Behr price because of "Porsche tax" and the Modine because of old tech (my assumption) , is the Rennaire that much better of a value at $300 less? It's skinnier than kuehl's top to bottom. That's what I can see.- might not mean a thing. So if we scratch $100 of the delta for install goodies and the "perceived" value of customer service (I have never had a problem hooking up with his pathetic golf playing self). We have a $200 difference.

I don't know why there is a difference. Do you? Is it truly snake oil? Do you know for sure? If equal in performance to Rennaire or just slightly better, is bashing kuehl valid if he is charging more than Rennaire?

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by wwest

No, it is simply my desire to educate the few that are interested about how to get adequate A/C performance without spending more than pocket change.

Ok. Here is your challenge. A 1987, 911, cabriolet, red exterior, tan interior, black top.
Vehicle odometer reads 90K, all AC components are original and condition is unknown.
Owner often has a passenger driving with them. Occasionally takes weekend trips,
and would like to use the car as a daily driver.

100F ambients, 66% humidity. Car sits in sun 11:00 am to 2:00 pm. Cockpit temperature is 137F+.

Goal is 70F or less at driver's head in less than 20 minutes driving time.

Provide a complete list of checks, bill of materials, costs, labor hours, warranty and technical support.
Delivered product must included detailed instructions for either a DIY to do the project on the ground, or
an experienced Porsche Tech to take on the project, using common hand tools.
Instructions to cover installation of components with checks, as well as final evacuation, charge
and testing procedures: A "turn key" solution that will not require them to drop what they are doing in the middle of the project
and run to the hardware store.

Design the system, test it and gives us your data.

Then provide 10-15 years of customer testimonials which support your design, performance, reliability and warranty.

Not theory Willyboy. Realworld stuff.

[tirwin]

wwest,

You are just impossible. I mean if you were really so concerned about helping others and preventing them from spending money unnecessarily, there are a quite a few things that I could think of that would be far more useful to people than the A/C subject.

A couple of weeks ago, a mechanic posted a question one of my CIS YouTube videos. He had a old 911 in his shop and clearly had no idea how to troubleshoot what was wrong. He replaced the fuel accumulator (~$500) and a few other things just randomly swapping parts out trying to fix the car. I told him he shouldn't do that and he said "it's ok, I got permission from the owner." That is taking someone to the proverbial cleaners in my book. And you know what? It happens all day, every day.

So the way I look at it, there are all kinds of topics on here where we could discuss (argue?) for hours about whether the benefits suggested by the manufacturers are really as good as they say. Heck, maybe all those people who believe polybronze bushings are vastly superior are suffering from some form of mass delusion. There are plenty of things where we can help other people by learning from our mistakes or coaching them through the problems they face. There are examples of that all over the place.

But yet you seem to fixate on Charlie and his products. Why is that? It seems it's all because at some point he dared to bruise your delicate ego.

I just don't get you. Just think what you could contribute if you used your powers for good instead of evil. There are healthy ways of carrying on an intellectual discourse. You choose not to. I am giving you honest feedback when I say this -- if you think you are trying to help DIYers, the way you have handled these A/C conversations has probably counteracted any help you seek to provide. I asked you recently if we had ANY examples of someone listening to your advice and coming back to this forum and saying "yep, what wwest suggested really works." You instead gave me some vague statement that others have tried it before. So I'll go back to my previous question. Since it seems we have NO evidence of you convincing anyone to attempt your ideas, how successful would you say your approach as been? If you were actually selling a product, I'd say it's time to go back to the ol' drawing board and re-examine your approach. It does not appear to be working. At the very least, if you still believe you technical ideas have merit, I'd certainly say you need to rethink your sales approach.

But maybe it's not really about your ideas being helpful. Maybe this is all just a petty little game that is designed to steer business away from Charlie because he made you mad. All I can say is - how pathetic.

For the record, I have none of Charlie's products. I don't know Charlie. So no "buyer's remorse" (as you put it) here. I just think this little charade has gone on long enough.

I'm sure you'll respond like you always do. Picking apart every sentence. Never learning how the quote tags work so that you can pick apart words but making difficult for others to do the same to you. (It's really not that hard, I promise.) Always have to have the last word in everything. Let me save you the effort in your response. Unless you're ready to drop this little jihad and move on to actually attempting to be a productive person around here, I don't give two hoots in hell what you have to say.

I think I speak for others when I say we would welcome productive input from you, but really, this has gone far enough (too far, really, and for far too long).

[wwest]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

I am seeing Modine, Behr, Rennaire and kuehl's evaporators for sale.

I can get the Modine for $180 from *********. Behr is just short of $500 - new on Ebay, Rennaire for $300 and kuehl for $599. Several other places sell kuehl evap kits - plus or minus a few bucks.

kuehl has well articulate explanations and some kit to help with install. No other sites have this save those selling kuehl kits and this is limited to the extra goodies.

Here is the Modine:


Here is the Behr:


Here is the Rennaire:


kuehl's from Griffiths tech:



Kuehl's from other suppliers (e.g., Zims)



If we scratch the Behr price because of "Porsche tax" and the Modine because of old tech (my assumption) , is the Rennaire that much better of a value at $300 less? It's skinnier than kuehl's top to bottom. That's what I can see.- might not mean a thing. So if we scratch $100 of the delta for install goodies and the "perceived" value of customer service (I have never had a problem hooking up with his pathetic golf playing self). We have a $200 difference.

I don't know why there is a difference. Do you? Is it truly snake oil? Do you know for sure? If equal in performance to Rennaire or just slightly better, is bashing kuehl valid if he is charging more than Rennaire?

Bashing Kuehl's products because of Snake Oil sales/marketing techniques. Misrepresentation of product value.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Ok. Here is your challenge. A 1987, 911, cabriolet, red exterior, tan interior, black top.
Vehicle odometer reads 90K, all AC components are original and condition is unknown.
Owner often has a passenger driving with them. Occasionally takes weekend trips,
and would like to use the car as a daily driver.

100F ambients, 66% humidity. Car sits in sun 11:00 am to 2:00 pm. Cockpit temperature is 137F+.

Goal is 70F or less at driver's head in less than 20 minutes driving time.

Provide a complete list of checks, bill of materials, costs, labor hours, warranty and technical support.
Delivered product must included detailed instructions for either a DIY to do the project on the ground, or
an experienced Porsche Tech to take on the project, using common hand tools.
Instructions to cover installation of components with checks, as well as final evacuation, charge
and testing procedures: A "turn key" solution that will not require them to drop what they are doing in the middle of the project
and run to the hardware store.

Design the system, test it and gives us your data.

Then provide 10-15 years of customer testimonials which support your design, performance, reliability and warranty.

Not theory Willyboy. Realworld stuff.

10-15 years in business and still getting by primariliy selling Snake Oil...


That must really hurt.

[wwest]

Originally Posted by tirwin

wwest,

You are just impossible. I mean if you were really so concerned about helping others and preventing them from spending money unnecessarily, there are a quite a few things that I could think of that would be far more useful to people than the A/C subject.

A couple of weeks ago, a mechanic posted a question one of my CIS YouTube videos. He had a old 911 in his shop and clearly had no idea how to troubleshoot what was wrong. He replaced the fuel accumulator (~$500) and a few other things just randomly swapping parts out trying to fix the car. I told him he shouldn't do that and he said "it's ok, I got permission from the owner." That is taking someone to the proverbial cleaners in my book. And you know what? It happens all day, every day.

It can be even worse, have you wife take your car to a shop with dirty corroded battery terminals that only need to be burnished "starter doesn't always work"...10:1 says she'll come away with a new battery, and 5:1 including an alternator, and 2:1 a new starter.

So the way I look at it, there are all kinds of topics on here where we could discuss (argue?) for hours about whether the benefits suggested by the manufacturers are really as good as they say. Heck, maybe all those people who believe polybronze bushings are vastly superior are suffering from some form of mass delusion.

We use, exclusively, ball bearing cooling fans in our computer products...common complaint......TRUE complaint...NOISE.

There are plenty of things where we can help other people by learning from our mistakes or coaching them through the problems they face. There are examples of that all over the place.

But yet you seem to fixate on Charlie and his products. Why is that? It seems it's all because at some point he dared to bruise your delicate ego.

Search of wwest posts....

I just don't get you. Just think what you could contribute if you used your powers for good instead of evil. There are healthy ways of carrying on an intellectual discourse. You choose not to. I am giving you honest feedback when I say this -- if you think you are trying to help DIYers, the way you have handled these A/C conversations has probably counteracted any help you seek to provide. I asked you recently if we had ANY examples of someone listening to your advice and coming back to this forum and saying "yep, what wwest suggested really works." You instead gave me some vague statement that others have tried it before.

Obviously you haven't done much remote troubleshooting....most of the time you only hear back if your suggested fix/solution doesn't help.

So I'll go back to my previous question. Since it seems we have NO evidence of you convincing anyone to attempt your ideas, how successful would you say your approach as been?

First, let's make it clear that the rear lid condenser idea was not originated by me. If you Google using various search terms you find more than a dozen that have tried the solution. Now try to find someone who has reported the long term results, even asking via PM...

There was one person that wished to try the rear condenser fan idea but didn't wish to open the system to install a trinary pressure switch. So I suggested the use of a thermal switch taped to the condenser inlet tube...

If you were actually selling a product, I'd say it's time to go back to the ol' drawing board and re-examine your approach. It does not appear to be working. At the very least, if you still believe you technical ideas have merit, I'd certainly say you need to rethink your sales approach.

Neither of us can be certain of that one way or another.

But maybe it's not really about your ideas being helpful. Maybe this is all just a petty little game that is designed to steer business away from

Charlie because he made you mad. All I can say is - how pathetic.

Kuehl/Charlie stepped in almost immediately denigrating the rear condenser fan idea with blunt statements, like "that will not work," "the motor will over heat" etc, etc, while his shills followed suite. So I went looking for Kuehl credentials, and found them wanting....VERY...

I don't think Kuehl/Charlie even has the knowledge, Basic understanding, only actual experience, to understand why his products work...or NOT.

For the record, I have none of Charlie's products. I don't know Charlie. So no "buyer's remorse" (as you put it) here. I just think this little charade has gone on long enough.

I'm sure you'll respond like you always do. Picking apart every sentence. Never learning how the quote tags work so that you can pick apart words but making difficult for others to do the same to you. (It's really not that hard, I promise.) Always have to have the last word in everything. Let me save you the effort in your response. Unless you're ready to drop this little jihad and move on to actually attempting to be a productive person around here, I don't give two hoots in hell what you have to say.

I think I speak for others when I say we would welcome productive input from you, but really, this has gone far enough (too far, really, and for far too long).

Productive input....That's where all this started and then Kuehl and his SHILLs had to step in with ill-founded naysaying, PROVE IT they all said....

Show me the logic that indicates the idea will not, may not work, and I'll see cause for going into the Proof. Not that I haven't done that already.

[wwest]

Like this, blanket "naysayer" statement with absolutely no foundation.

Originally Posted by kuehl

Mr West.

Thank you for addressing the questions with your opinions.
Your opinions are naturally predicated upon your experiences,
your needs and your desires.

When it comes to AC cooling "performance gains",
in most of these threads, the member(s) asking the question(s) are in need of
significant improvements as compared to stock systems; they are not driving
their 911/930 in summer temperatures that average below 85F, on the contrary
they are in the 90's and 100's. It is a known fact that the stock system using R12
cannot provide the cooling comfort they wish for, because of various reasons:
condenser capacity, volume of air, distribution of air, etc.

In "your" opinion a 10% improvement in an engine oil cooler is acceptable
provided it is affordable. Granted. The rules of procurement are:
1) A product that meets the needs: fit, form, function and reliability.
2) A product that is available when you need it.
3) A product that is at a "just" price; this later point you seem to contest through out your thread posts. Ok, you have a nit pick with pricing. That is your opinion.

So, back to the example of the oil cooler proven to provide a 10% lower return temperature as compared to stock and competitors. Who, other than yourself
would want this product? Naturally it is the owner of a car whom is need of that
10% gain because they actually need it. Is it affordable to them? In their opinion it might be. In your opinion for yourself it is not, probably because you do not need it.
However to tell or attempt to convince a reader on the forum that it is overpriced
or "snake oil" in your terms,

..and then go on to offer alternative suggestions that have not worked, could not work, or have never been proven to work?

Well, that is not sound advice. Some people enjoy finding alternative solutions (innovations). Some people enjoy bolting on a turn-key solution. And others don't have the time or desire and let others do the work. That is the nature of life. However you seem to wish that every reader in this forum must follow your path, your suggestions or travel down your road. Well, it seems that most do not wish to. That is their choice.

The cost of a product is usually relative to the factors of production: capital investment, R&D, and volume (supply and demand). One could easily argue that an add on board for a computer priced at $3500 is overpriced. One could also imply that a company in the computer business that is advertising products on their website and noting Call For Price sounds like a hypocritical Snake Oil company.

A reader posts that in their opinion that they 'predict' an outcome. And you respond
"Sounds like a speculative prediction to me...". Well, it reads to me that either you are speculating or being hypocritical.

A reader posts that in their opinion 10% is "close enough". And you respond
with an opinion to speculate with coefficient tables, however on the other hand you always demand test methods and data, yet you yourself have not presented the same; you want others to do your work.... why is that?

Your opinions/arguments, examples such as "the case at hand we're talking 24,000 BTU's of cooling capacity vs. 26,400 BTU's" or "uncertainty as to whether even the hurricane blower can "squeeze" that much cooled airflow through the flow restrictor, restriction." , appears to me like speculation, you have not proved anything to the contrary.

A statement like: "a 400 HP engine to a race if the rules dictate that you must limit to 300 HP using an air flow restriction plate." , does not make logical sense. If you had a 300 hp engine with a restrictor plate and you upped it to 400 hp, you still have more air moving through the plate. I experienced with is my supercharger this year, as well as others with their turbo's.

All of your rants to me, my products, my company, as well as other members of the Pelican community, seem to imply you do have a personal jihad.
Your jihad reduces your creditability in this forum.

[962]

Originally Posted by kuehl

Ok. Here is your challenge. A 1987, 911, cabriolet, red exterior, tan interior, black top.
Vehicle odometer reads 90K, all AC components are original and condition is unknown.
Owner often has a passenger driving with them. Occasionally takes weekend trips,
and would like to use the car as a daily driver.

100F ambients, 66% humidity. Car sits in sun 11:00 am to 2:00 pm. Cockpit temperature is 137F+.

Goal is 70F or less at driver's head in less than 20 minutes driving time.

Provide a complete list of checks, bill of materials, costs, labor hours, warranty and technical support.
Delivered product must included detailed instructions for either a DIY to do the project on the ground, or
an experienced Porsche Tech to take on the project, using common hand tools.
Instructions to cover installation of components with checks, as well as final evacuation, charge
and testing procedures: A "turn key" solution that will not require them to drop what they are doing in the middle of the project
and run to the hardware store.

Design the system, test it and gives us your data.

Then provide 10-15 years of customer testimonials which support your design, performance, reliability and warranty.

Not theory Willyboy. Realworld stuff.

My car is an 1987 Carrera What if you add a modified 95 3.6 twin turbo transplant engine with a full bay intercooler like this into the mix.

Recommendations appreciated.....Money is no object ! What mods should I make to the 87 chassis, to make the system work well?

[friendly]

Agree with Tirwin..
He went on my "ignore list" as soon as I found it. I'm buying Kuehl as soon as I decide when to drop the axe!